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Topic: Nefario - page 87. (Read 198716 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1015
October 06, 2012, 02:30:10 AM

It will only be illegal if its not shut down. It currently isnt illegal.

If nefario has been told to shut it down and complies there is no issue.

Rubbish.  He can still be charged over the period he was operating the exchange illegally, although the penalties would most likely be administrative.  Whether the FSA/SEC or whomever would actually pursue charges is a different issue but we're not talking about a restraining order/injunction here where the obligation to refrain from a behaviour doesn't start until a legal request to desist is issued and non-compliance with that request creates the illegality.  

No bitcoin.me is correct.

I rob banks all the time and when they say stop I stop. Then they can't put me in jail.
Saving this for my legal defense. Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 06, 2012, 02:28:05 AM
Get one person to AML for lots of different accounts for a cut.

Because breaking even more laws in relation to an organisation which is already under scrutiny is a great idea.

Right now, everyone has to work on the assumption that everything sketchy to do with GBLSE is going to come out in the wash, including any illegal proposals put forward on this forum. 

Y'all sure throw the "illegal" word around a lot here.

What's illegal about someone not wanting to deal with the claim process (and the risk therein) selling their claim to someone who is willing to deal with the process and assume the risk?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
October 06, 2012, 02:26:05 AM
time to give the forum a good wash
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
October 06, 2012, 02:25:48 AM

It will only be illegal if its not shut down. It currently isnt illegal.

If nefario has been told to shut it down and complies there is no issue.

Rubbish.  He can still be charged over the period he was operating the exchange illegally, although the penalties would most likely be administrative.  Whether the FSA/SEC or whomever would actually pursue charges is a different issue but we're not talking about a restraining order/injunction here where the obligation to refrain from a behaviour doesn't start until a legal request to desist is issued and non-compliance with that request creates the illegality.  

No bitcoin.me is correct.

I rob banks all the time and when they say stop I stop. Then they can't put me in jail.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
October 06, 2012, 02:16:21 AM
Get one person to AML for lots of different accounts for a cut.

Because breaking even more laws in relation to an organisation which is already under scrutiny is a great idea.

Right now, everyone has to work on the assumption that everything sketchy to do with GBLSE is going to come out in the wash, including any illegal proposals put forward on this forum. 
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 06, 2012, 02:05:34 AM
I was thinking for people who didnt want to go through AML they might pay a fee to someone who doesnt mind doing it who can then claim their account on their behalf.

True. What I meant was, no matter how doable it is, going through Nefario will be a painful and time consuming process with unpredictable outcomes. And he wouldn't assume the responsibility of the verification process.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
October 06, 2012, 02:02:51 AM

It will only be illegal if its not shut down. It currently isnt illegal.

If nefario has been told to shut it down and complies there is no issue.

Rubbish.  He can still be charged over the period he was operating the exchange illegally, although the penalties would most likely be administrative.  Whether the FSA/SEC or whomever would actually pursue charges is a different issue but we're not talking about a restraining order/injunction here where the obligation to refrain from a behaviour doesn't start until a legal request to desist is issued and non-compliance with that request creates the illegality.  
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
October 06, 2012, 02:01:44 AM
Are the backup databases fully synced?

Regardless of the coins, those holding the copies, after cross-checking its integrity, can create independent reclaim codes and communicate them to shareholders. This can be done regardless of the BTC flow, and hopefully ASAP.

As I had proposed in another thread, the claim codes should encode the asset id and number of shares, so that a list doesn't need to be given to issuers. This way, it will be up to the shareholders to disclose their ownership to the issuer.

After the shareholder submits the code to the issuer, issuer sends a verification code to one of the database maintainers, which passes the verification code to the shareholder. Shareholder submits this verification code to the issuer, thereby successfully proving ownership anonymously.

Any better ideas? This may sound like too much fuss, especially if different encoding schemes are used by database maintainers or the database isn't synced, but I think it would definitively fix this portion of the wreckage.

Also, if the issuer wants to list on a different exchange, which will cooperate with the process, the maintainer might give the shareholders a redeeming URL at the new exchange to automate the process.


Get one person to AML for lots of different accounts for a cut.

I don't get what you're saying. I'm assuming the only people we can trust is the db maintainers, for no other reason than the fact that we already have to trust them. Are you talking about the shareholder side?

On the other hand, "they" probably already have the database and it's almost worse than it being public. Just sending it to all issuers might have become a valid option. I'd like to hear what theymos thinks about this.

Another option is to launch the same exchange under tor by one of the maintainers, but there would be massive problems with this.



I was thinking for people who didnt want to go through AML they might pay a fee to someone who doesnt mind doing it who can then claim their account on their behalf.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 06, 2012, 01:57:20 AM
Are the backup databases fully synced?

Regardless of the coins, those holding the copies, after cross-checking its integrity, can create independent reclaim codes and communicate them to shareholders. This can be done regardless of the BTC flow, and hopefully ASAP.

As I had proposed in another thread, the claim codes should encode the asset id and number of shares, so that a list doesn't need to be given to issuers. This way, it will be up to the shareholders to disclose their ownership to the issuer.

After the shareholder submits the code to the issuer, issuer sends a verification code to one of the database maintainers, which passes the verification code to the shareholder. Shareholder submits this verification code to the issuer, thereby successfully proving ownership anonymously.

Any better ideas? This may sound like too much fuss, especially if different encoding schemes are used by database maintainers or the database isn't synced, but I think it would definitively fix this portion of the wreckage.

Also, if the issuer wants to list on a different exchange, which will cooperate with the process, the maintainer might give the shareholders a redeeming URL at the new exchange to automate the process.


Get one person to AML for lots of different accounts for a cut.

I don't get what you're saying. I'm assuming the only people we can trust is the db maintainers, for no other reason than the fact that we already have to trust them. Are you talking about the shareholder side?

On the other hand, "they" probably already have the database and it's almost worse than it being public. Just sending it to all issuers might have become a valid option. I'd like to hear what theymos thinks about this.

Another option is to launch the same exchange under tor by one of the maintainers, but there would be massive problems with this.

EDIT: Oh, okay, I get what you are proposing now.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
October 06, 2012, 01:41:46 AM
Are the backup databases fully synced?

Regardless of the coins, those holding the copies, after cross-checking its integrity, can create independent reclaim codes and communicate them to shareholders. This can be done regardless of the BTC flow, and hopefully ASAP.

As I had proposed in another thread, the claim codes should encode the asset id and number of shares, so that a list doesn't need to be given to issuers. This way, it will be up to the shareholders to disclose their ownership to the issuer.

After the shareholder submits the code to the issuer, issuer sends a verification code to one of the database maintainers, which passes the verification code to the shareholder. Shareholder submits this verification code to the issuer, thereby successfully proving ownership anonymously.

Any better ideas? This may sound like too much fuss, especially if different encoding schemes are used by database maintainers or the database isn't synced, but I think it would definitively fix this portion of the wreckage.

Also, if the issuer wants to list on a different exchange, which will cooperate with the process, the maintainer might give the shareholders a redeeming URL at the new exchange to automate the process.



Get one person to AML for lots of different accounts for a cut.
hero member
Activity: 631
Merit: 500
October 06, 2012, 01:40:03 AM

Nefario has always held onto most of the user funds so he could top up the hot wallet when necessary. Exactly what funds I should hold was never clearly-defined. I ended up holding all BitcoinGlobal cash on hand plus some of the user funds for when Nefario was away and the hot wallet needed to be refilled.

I assume he's spending user deposits. Maybe he's using his own money, but I don't think he has enough to cover lawyer fees. He said in the meeting that he wants BitcoinGlobal to pay for the lawyer.

Is 1FX22c76vybHJSJdCCjKHDHhcMDhDX87nw the user deposit address under Nefario's control? My coins are literally in the last fucking transaction to that address...I'm such a fucking sheep
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 06, 2012, 01:38:18 AM
Are the backup databases fully synced?

Regardless of the coins, those holding the copies, after cross-checking its integrity, can create independent reclaim codes and communicate them to shareholders. This can be done regardless of the BTC flow, and hopefully ASAP.

As I had proposed in another thread, the claim codes should encode the asset id and number of shares, so that a list doesn't need to be given to issuers. This way, it will be up to the shareholders to disclose their ownership to the issuer.

After the shareholder submits the code to the issuer, issuer sends a verification code to one of the database maintainers, which passes the verification code to the shareholder. Shareholder submits this verification code to the issuer, thereby successfully proving ownership anonymously.

Any better ideas? This may sound like too much fuss, especially if different encoding schemes are used by database maintainers or the database isn't synced, but I think it would definitively fix this portion of the wreckage.

Also, if the issuer wants to list on a different exchange, which will cooperate with the process, the maintainer might give the shareholders a redeeming URL at the new exchange to automate the process.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
October 06, 2012, 01:35:48 AM
So why do people want to hide their identities?

Because if 'the feds' are targeting an exchange, the next step is to go after the users of the exchange, I'd encourage everyone to just take the loss and move on... as that's the only sane thing to do.

What's wrong with using an exchange?

Well according to the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 you can go to fucking jail for trading on an unlicensed securities exchange. Even small exchanges that are granted an exemption from licensure must apply for a license and then seek exemption or they are breaking the law. Its crazy how many Forex traders boast about their vast knowledge of trading skills and don’t even understand the most basic laws surrounding trading. In a recent New York ruling you are fucked by mere association with someone that has committed securities fraud!


Court Expands Scope of Third-Party Liability for Securities Fraud
“The New York-based Second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last month that aider and abettor liability is not just limited to those who directly cause a securities fraud, but extends to any individual who so much as associates with the wrongdoing. The decision effectively clarifies the question of what conduct satisfies “substantial assistance” under Section 20(e) of the Securities Exchange Act, which allows the SEC—but not private litigants—to bring civil actions against aiders and abettors of securities fraud.”

theymos if I were you I would get an attorney of my own.


WHAT?  I thought it was regulated?

It could apply to the whole forum since theres a securities section.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
October 06, 2012, 01:32:09 AM
So why do people want to hide their identities?

Because if 'the feds' are targeting an exchange, the next step is to go after the users of the exchange, I'd encourage everyone to just take the loss and move on... as that's the only sane thing to do.

What's wrong with using an exchange?

Well according to the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 you can go to fucking jail for trading on an unlicensed securities exchange. Even small exchanges that are granted an exemption from licensure must apply for a license and then seek exemption or they are breaking the law. Its crazy how many Forex traders boast about their vast knowledge of trading skills and don’t even understand the most basic laws surrounding trading. In a recent New York ruling you are fucked by mere association with someone that has committed securities fraud!


Court Expands Scope of Third-Party Liability for Securities Fraud
“The New York-based Second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last month that aider and abettor liability is not just limited to those who directly cause a securities fraud, but extends to any individual who so much as associates with the wrongdoing. The decision effectively clarifies the question of what conduct satisfies “substantial assistance” under Section 20(e) of the Securities Exchange Act, which allows the SEC—but not private litigants—to bring civil actions against aiders and abettors of securities fraud.”

theymos if I were you I would get an attorney of my own.


WHAT?  I thought it was regulated?
sr. member
Activity: 275
Merit: 250
October 06, 2012, 01:31:24 AM
Quote
Well according to the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 you can go to fucking jail for trading on an unlicensed securities exchange. Even small exchanges that are granted an exemption from licensure must apply for a license and then seek exemption or they are breaking the law. Its crazy how many Forex traders boast about their vast knowledge of trading skills and don’t even understand the most basic laws surrounding trading. In a recent New York ruling you are fucked by mere association with someone that has committed securities fraud!

If Theymos goes to prison because of his role in running this illegal operation, what will happen to the forums?   Huh

It will only be illegal if its not shut down. It currently isnt illegal.

If nefario has been told to shut it down and complies there is no issue.

So something is only illegal if you're told to stop and you don't?  I mean, it doesn't pass the smell test, but I also don't know anything about the laws regarding securities. 
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
October 06, 2012, 01:26:44 AM
Quote
Well according to the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 you can go to fucking jail for trading on an unlicensed securities exchange. Even small exchanges that are granted an exemption from licensure must apply for a license and then seek exemption or they are breaking the law. Its crazy how many Forex traders boast about their vast knowledge of trading skills and don’t even understand the most basic laws surrounding trading. In a recent New York ruling you are fucked by mere association with someone that has committed securities fraud!

If Theymos goes to prison because of his role in running this illegal operation, what will happen to the forums?   Huh

It will only be illegal if its not shut down. It currently isnt illegal.

If nefario has been told to shut it down and complies there is no issue.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 06, 2012, 01:24:42 AM
Quote
Well according to the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 you can go to fucking jail for trading on an unlicensed securities exchange. Even small exchanges that are granted an exemption from licensure must apply for a license and then seek exemption or they are breaking the law. Its crazy how many Forex traders boast about their vast knowledge of trading skills and don’t even understand the most basic laws surrounding trading. In a recent New York ruling you are fucked by mere association with someone that has committed securities fraud!

If Theymos goes to prison because of his role in running this illegal operation, what will happen to the forums?   Huh
legendary
Activity: 4522
Merit: 3426
October 06, 2012, 01:22:24 AM
I assume he's spending user deposits. Maybe he's using his own money, but I don't think he has enough to cover lawyer fees. He said in the meeting that he wants BitcoinGlobal to pay for the lawyer.
Well, it's one thing for BitcoinGlobal to pay for the lawyer and quite another to pay the lawyer with users' money. John Corzine (CEO of MF Global) got away with it, but I don't think that Mr. McCarthy can bribe the regulators like Mr. Corzine did.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
October 06, 2012, 01:09:37 AM
I assume he's spending user deposits. Maybe he's using his own money, but I don't think he has enough to cover lawyer fees. He said in the meeting that he wants BitcoinGlobal to pay for the lawyer.

So he's not telling you what he needs a lawyer for, but he wants BG to pay for it?  I hate to sound like a bitch, but he needs to produce evidence of the need for a lawyer first - something quite specific and in writing - and user funds can't be used to pay for it even if there is a legitimate need.  Even if BG has some of its own reserves which could be used for this purpose, they should not be channelled towards legal fees for Nefario until you have a written legal opinion stating that none of the shareholders are in legal jeopardy - otherwise you're all screwed if Nefario gets legal advice on BG's dime and you guys find yourselves facing legal problems later.

Honestly, the shareholders - and especially you - themselves need legal advice at this point.  At the very least, you want the other shareholders to indemnify you against any liability which arises as a result of you complying with their demand for you to hand funds over to Nefario.  And you want that indemnity drafted by your lawyer, not theirs.
hero member
Activity: 585
Merit: 501
October 06, 2012, 12:57:40 AM
Quote
A Bitcoin stock exchange is a good idea, though. I hope that someone will create something better than GLBSE and MPEx.

There is something bether out there created by vircurex. Its called cryptostocks.com. You can deal not only with BTC securities but allso LTC and DVC.
Im realy glad that im positioned on https://cryptostocks.com
The identity check is optional there.
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