New Official AMT Thread - page 110. | Bitcointalksearch.org

FrictionlessCoin

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Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 09:29:56 AM

I also wonder if disconnecting the power, and the damage was a decoy to make me think the boards were damaged in shipping, when perhaps they were just non-working boards.

I can't prove any of this, but everyone may have different opinions on this.

Hard to prove that the damage was deliberate.

However, very easy to prove negligence. The padding on my box was completely inadequate. Anyone from FEDEX will attest to this.

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Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 09:21:39 AM

AMT_Miners - Please do not delete this post until you answer my question on what I am supposed to do with this broken miner that is coming back to me. You told me you would pick it up at your local FedEx since the office was closed, but you never did.

MrPark... so FEDEX attempted 3 times to deliver the faulty product and failed 3 times.

So are "delivery attempts" to be considered as "failed repair attempts"?

If so, you should be covered by the Federal Lemon Law.

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Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 09:23:00 AM

Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 09:21:39 AM

AMT_Miners - Please do not delete this post until you answer my question on what I am supposed to do with this broken miner that is coming back to me. You told me you would pick it up, but you never did.

Yes, this is evidence. Deleting this is destruction of evidence.

I also question the way the miner was damaged. You can see in the one photo there is paint missing from the top of the case, it almost looks like someone struck it with crowbar or hammer. How could damage occur like this when it is packed on the inside of a box? You can also see the paint is missing... It is very suspicious to me. In addition, why is the door not bent there if it was struck there? It is because it was damages when the door taken off. This one photo never sat right with me... This is my evidence...

I also wonder if disconnecting the power, and the damage was a decoy to make me think the boards were damaged in shipping, when perhaps they were just non-working boards.

It is clearly documented in email and on this forum that AMT had it out for me since I reported not receiving a miner when the due date come. Silly me for expecting them to keep their word.

Exhibit A:

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This is the miner that was delivered to me:

Deleting this message is tantamount to willfull destruction of evidence. AMT keep that in mind.

FrictionlessCoin

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Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 09:21:39 AM

AMT_Miners - Please do not delete this post until you answer my question on what I am supposed to do with this broken miner that is coming back to me. You told me you would pick it up, but you never did.

Yes, this is evidence. Deleting this is destruction of evidence.

mrpark

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AMT_Miners - Please do not delete this post until you answer my question on what I am supposed to do with this broken miner that is coming back to me. You told me you would pick it up at your local FedEx since the office was closed, but you never did.

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Quote from: rik_khaos on May 07, 2014, 09:10:48 AM

Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 09:04:11 AM

Quote from: rik_khaos on May 07, 2014, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

FEDERAL LEMON LAW

http://www.carlemon.com/warranty_act.aspx

The federal Lemon Law (the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) provide for compensation to consumers of defective automobiles and trucks and other vehicles and products including motorcycles, RV's, boats, computers and other consumer appliances and products. To qualify under the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer's factory warranty. Lemon Law compensation can include a refund, replacement or cash compensation.

Here is AMT warranty:

Quote

Warranty: This unit’s system board has a
lifetime warranty from manufacture defect
or component failure.

You can't just highlight the parts that you like.

My question, is this not covered under the Federal Lemon Law?

Sure it most likely is. But means you must receive a unit, send it back to them, and have them repair it. then when it gets back to you you'd have to hook it up and use it, and it would have to fail again. YOu'd send it back to AMT for a 2nd time they would fix it. You get back set it up running and it fails a 3rd time. You send to AMT they repair and send it back to you. If it doesn't work the 4th time then you can get a refund, replacement, or, cash compensation.

So how does it work if the manufacturer (i.e. AMT) refuses to accept the item back?

Is that evidence that they are indeed in contempt of the law?

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Quote from: AMT_miners on May 07, 2014, 09:09:43 AM

Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 08:39:06 AM

Quote from: AMT_miners on May 06, 2014, 09:52:31 PM

We have not edited the site/pricing because the lawyers said not to touch anything, and these guys know their stuff. Part of the filing was that "nothing can altered, edited etc". Also we haven't accepted a new order in the last 4 weeks, despite people that would like to pay. And that's the truth. So why adjust the pricing if we're not accepting the orders, we just marked it as sold out/out of stock.

So should we contact your lawyers to ask why the site says that you have a 2.4 TH/s that is available for shipment on April 1st?

Which makes me also wonder, is AMT really selling an 2.4TH/s system and have you shipped these systems?

Contact them. White & Williams LLP.

Well, you tell us, are you selling a 2.4TH/s system?

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Quote from: Biffa on May 07, 2014, 09:17:13 AM

From the outside it looks like AMT just keep giving out little glimpes of hope to keep people tagging along.

They'd do better with twinkies than with carrots.

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From the outside it looks like AMT just keep giving out little glimpes of hope to keep people tagging along.

rik_khaos

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In most cases the product needs to try and be repaired 3 times before it's protected under the lemon law.

It's 3 times in PA , but in PA it is only applied to vehicles and I don't think you'll be driving your miner anywhere.

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Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 09:04:11 AM

Quote from: rik_khaos on May 07, 2014, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

FEDERAL LEMON LAW

http://www.carlemon.com/warranty_act.aspx

The federal Lemon Law (the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) provide for compensation to consumers of defective automobiles and trucks and other vehicles and products including motorcycles, RV's, boats, computers and other consumer appliances and products. To qualify under the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer's factory warranty. Lemon Law compensation can include a refund, replacement or cash compensation.

Here is AMT warranty:

Quote

Warranty: This unit’s system board has a
lifetime warranty from manufacture defect
or component failure.

You can't just highlight the parts that you like.

My question, is this not covered under the Federal Lemon Law?

Sure it most likely is. But means you must receive a unit, send it back to them, and have them repair it. then when it gets back to you you'd have to hook it up and use it, and it would have to fail again. YOu'd send it back to AMT for a 2nd time they would fix it. You get back set it up running and it fails a 3rd time. You send to AMT they repair and send it back to you. If it doesn't work the 4th time then you can get a refund, replacement, or, cash compensation.

AMT_miners

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Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 08:39:06 AM

Quote from: AMT_miners on May 06, 2014, 09:52:31 PM

We have not edited the site/pricing because the lawyers said not to touch anything, and these guys know their stuff. Part of the filing was that "nothing can altered, edited etc". Also we haven't accepted a new order in the last 4 weeks, despite people that would like to pay. And that's the truth. So why adjust the pricing if we're not accepting the orders, we just marked it as sold out/out of stock.

So should we contact your lawyers to ask why the site says that you have a 2.4 TH/s that is available for shipment on April 1st?

Which makes me also wonder, is AMT really selling an 2.4TH/s system and have you shipped these systems?

Contact them. White & Williams LLP.

rik_khaos

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: rik_khaos on May 07, 2014, 08:56:56 AM

You need to read more carefully.

AMT said the lawyers told them not to touch anything. Multiple people have attempted to place orders under fake and real personas and were not able to . They have functionally suspended orders at this time.

He said that suing the lawyer would probably be a frivolous lawsuit, not any pending litigation against AMT.

Well, what I am curious about is why this 'not to touch anything' but to continue to 'publish on the internet' is actually the right thing.

I mean it is like say you are accused of false advertising on TV, but you continue to broadcast your advertising on TV. How is this even correct?

Probably because it's the only record we as consumers have access to that expressly shows the claims. If that goes away sure all the lawyers and judges can see it but what about you if you were trying to organize the facts to build a case yourself? If you were suing in small claims court you'd be representing your self. This is more like a protection for the consumer, and a way to prevent them from manipulating anything on the site.

If you continued the ads on tv, but didn't accept any more orders you're not in violation of your advertisement because you are not selling.

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Quote from: rik_khaos on May 07, 2014, 09:02:20 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

FEDERAL LEMON LAW

http://www.carlemon.com/warranty_act.aspx

The federal Lemon Law (the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) provide for compensation to consumers of defective automobiles and trucks and other vehicles and products including motorcycles, RV's, boats, computers and other consumer appliances and products. To qualify under the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer's factory warranty. Lemon Law compensation can include a refund, replacement or cash compensation.

Here is AMT warranty:

Quote

Warranty: This unit’s system board has a
lifetime warranty from manufacture defect
or component failure.

You can't just highlight the parts that you like.

My question, is this not covered under the Federal Lemon Law?

rik_khaos

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 500

Just a regular guy who likes his fiber.

Quote from: ?? on ??

FEDERAL LEMON LAW

http://www.carlemon.com/warranty_act.aspx

The federal Lemon Law (the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) provide for compensation to consumers of defective automobiles and trucks and other vehicles and products including motorcycles, RV's, boats, computers and other consumer appliances and products. To qualify under the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer's factory warranty. Lemon Law compensation can include a refund, replacement or cash compensation.

Here is AMT warranty:

Quote

Warranty: This unit’s system board has a
lifetime warranty from manufacture defect
or component failure.

You can't just highlight the parts that you like.

rik_khaos

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 500

Just a regular guy who likes his fiber.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: opieum2 on May 07, 2014, 06:47:14 AM

Actually legally they cannot touch anything. They also stopped orders on hardware...because they are not taking any new orders they are at least in compliance of that. By them changing the website they would be in defiance of a court order, its the functional equivalent of shredding the documents. This is just the legal aspect. And also good luck suing lawyers lol. Generally speaking unless there is really good cause for it, other lawyers and judges view it as poor form and throw those cases out as frivolous. The lawyers are paid to consult and advise to avoid making a legal situation worse. In this case defense. A plantiff's lawyer....the class action, for instance advices the registered plantiffs what actions to take/not take. In this case the registered ones have stopped posting in public forums on the likley advise of their lawyers.

Where did get the information that they 'cannot touch anything' on their website?

Is there an existing court order that AMT stop from operating?

How do you know that this is 'the functional equivalent of shredding documents'? That's total B.S. Websites are taken down all the time and all the evidence is still on the servers.

How is this case a frivilous lawsuit? AMT has not delivered a working 1.2 THs miner and has not refunded any customers for failure to deliver.

You need to read more carefully.

AMT said the lawyers told them not to touch anything. Multiple people have attempted to place orders under fake and real personas and were not able to . They have functionally suspended orders at this time.

He said that suing the lawyer would probably be a frivolous lawsuit, not any pending litigation against AMT.

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Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 07:45:39 AM

Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 06:17:07 AM

Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 05:57:25 AM

Quote from: dreward on May 06, 2014, 11:27:19 PM

When I ordered back in November I thought the original delivery date was extremely aggressive but I was repeatedly assure that the dates were good. I honestly expected delivery in early February and I would still have made money. I also have a butterfly labs miner on order (at heavy discount due to their previous late deliveries). They are also 5 months late but they are going to deliver approximately 400% of the hash rate they originally offered (and have offered 100% refunds).
I understand that AMT may not have the money to offer 100% refunds immediately (this would be my preferred option at this point). I would take the the 6 months payout if I believed that I had a good chance of receiving the money, but I don't.
Not delivering a power supply and offering no refund for that cost is crazy.
Personally I think AMT should offer at least 3.6TH to replace the 1.2TH ordered. The difficulty has actually risen 8 fold since January so a threefold increase in performance is not even meeting us half way.
I do understand the difficult situation these guys are in, equally they should have some recourse to their suppliers (for example by receiving free chips from the chip designer).
I look forward to seeing some suggestions from AMT that give us some hope of a return of funds which they are required to offer by law.
I have brought things on Kickstarter and I understand the dangers of that type of purchase. This purchase was not made with those caveats and should not be subject to those risks.
I have to this point been extremely patient and generally supportive of AMT but I believe their current suggestions for resolution are a prime example of too little being offered.

+1 well said. I also think providing a 1.2T would be only 1/3 compensation at this point in the game. I think you are not alone, many of us feel because of the price drop an additional T's should be added, especially since AMT claims to be sooo good and have the best chips ETC. If companies that they (not us) think are not so good, like ANT S2 selling for $$2500 for 1T . They should be able to do much better and back up their claims of being so good and give is 3T for our $6000. They are talking out both sides of their mouth, on one hand telling us how they are better than spondoolies (which is not last years design but brand new design by the way); yet the don't want to beat their pricing. I am not even taking in account all the bitcoins we lost either.

Exactly, they have not delivered anything on our $6,000 purchase. If they are to deliver anything now, then they should deliver something that is worth $6,000. At current rates that at least a 3 THs system.

The fact that they have not changed the prices on their website appears to be a way to hide the reality that a 1 THs system can be bought for near $2,000. Yes, the defense lawyers are in on this scam by 'recommending' that the truth be manipulated. Is there any way to sue their lawyers as being accomplices?

You could also list a $100,000 house for $300,000 on a real estate website. A smart buyer would check the median price of houses in the area to come up with the true dollar amount. I think it could be easily proven that 1Th/s today is worth $2500 since there are more than 3 manufactures selling single units for this price to the public. I would imagine in a court this would be very easily to prove the price per Th/s. Perhaps you could have an argument if you had a super fancy custom build that ran on very low watts, it's not the case here.

Bottom line here really it would be about them honoring the MPP in what you are more or less describing. That is an advertised "feature" of their business designed to get customers. That would be a key component to honor, otherwise they run afoul of bait and switch tactics that are already covered on the books. If they compensate us for the time lost on the wait, damages and such then it works out. It would be hard to justify the value in that sense as pricing is market dependent and based on the speculative nature of bitcoin. They technically can charge whatever they want. The court likely will not interfere in that side of it. BUT they did advertise a compensation feature which is something they would need to honor.

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Quote from: AMT_miners on May 06, 2014, 09:52:31 PM

We have not edited the site/pricing because the lawyers said not to touch anything, and these guys know their stuff. Part of the filing was that "nothing can altered, edited etc". Also we haven't accepted a new order in the last 4 weeks, despite people that would like to pay. And that's the truth. So why adjust the pricing if we're not accepting the orders, we just marked it as sold out/out of stock.

So should we contact your lawyers to ask why the site says that you have a 2.4 TH/s that is available for shipment on April 1st?

Which makes me also wonder, is AMT really selling an 2.4TH/s system and have you shipped these systems?

mrpark

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Quote from: FrictionlessCoin on May 07, 2014, 06:17:07 AM

Quote from: mrpark on May 07, 2014, 05:57:25 AM

Quote from: dreward on May 06, 2014, 11:27:19 PM

When I ordered back in November I thought the original delivery date was extremely aggressive but I was repeatedly assure that the dates were good. I honestly expected delivery in early February and I would still have made money. I also have a butterfly labs miner on order (at heavy discount due to their previous late deliveries). They are also 5 months late but they are going to deliver approximately 400% of the hash rate they originally offered (and have offered 100% refunds).
I understand that AMT may not have the money to offer 100% refunds immediately (this would be my preferred option at this point). I would take the the 6 months payout if I believed that I had a good chance of receiving the money, but I don't.
Not delivering a power supply and offering no refund for that cost is crazy.
Personally I think AMT should offer at least 3.6TH to replace the 1.2TH ordered. The difficulty has actually risen 8 fold since January so a threefold increase in performance is not even meeting us half way.
I do understand the difficult situation these guys are in, equally they should have some recourse to their suppliers (for example by receiving free chips from the chip designer).
I look forward to seeing some suggestions from AMT that give us some hope of a return of funds which they are required to offer by law.
I have brought things on Kickstarter and I understand the dangers of that type of purchase. This purchase was not made with those caveats and should not be subject to those risks.
I have to this point been extremely patient and generally supportive of AMT but I believe their current suggestions for resolution are a prime example of too little being offered.

+1 well said. I also think providing a 1.2T would be only 1/3 compensation at this point in the game. I think you are not alone, many of us feel because of the price drop an additional T's should be added, especially since AMT claims to be sooo good and have the best chips ETC. If companies that they (not us) think are not so good, like ANT S2 selling for $$2500 for 1T . They should be able to do much better and back up their claims of being so good and give is 3T for our $6000. They are talking out both sides of their mouth, on one hand telling us how they are better than spondoolies (which is not last years design but brand new design by the way); yet the don't want to beat their pricing. I am not even taking in account all the bitcoins we lost either.

Exactly, they have not delivered anything on our $6,000 purchase. If they are to deliver anything now, then they should deliver something that is worth $6,000. At current rates that at least a 3 THs system.

The fact that they have not changed the prices on their website appears to be a way to hide the reality that a 1 THs system can be bought for near $2,000. Yes, the defense lawyers are in on this scam by 'recommending' that the truth be manipulated. Is there any way to sue their lawyers as being accomplices?

You could also list a $100,000 house for $300,000 on a real estate website. A smart buyer would check the median price of houses in the area to come up with the true dollar amount. I think it could be easily proven that 1Th/s today is worth $2500 since there are more than 3 manufactures selling single units for this price to the public. I would imagine in a court this would be very easily to prove the price per Th/s. Perhaps you could have an argument if you had a super fancy custom build that ran on very low watts, it's not the case here.

Topic: New Official AMT Thread - page 110. (Read 149472 times)