Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS - page 153. (Read 1053231 times)

I know, but check https://chainz.cryptoid.info/apex/#!extraction and the links, it's more complicated than 51% of the stake.

The attack was done with 0.07% of the coins, but among the apex stakers, there was an average of 15 nodes during the period of the attack, and there were larger holders, #10 & #14 alone held 4% of the coins and were staking.

At the moment the Noble node network is less than 10 nodes on average, which means exchanges, mining pools, explorer, and almost no users.

The problem is that on normal PoS the weight of staking depends not just on coins, but on age, so lots of smaller amounts that have not staked for a while (just keep the wallet offline) that are suddenly allowed to stake in a private sub-net will have field day, same as a "whale" suddenly coming online in a small PoS network. The only missing technical step is to tweak the attack to work around the centralized checkpointing (if there is one), which can be accomplished in a variety of ways.

Join in #noblecoin IRC for discussions.

There is already a 'go' for a general pos from the time rofo got palm detroit to work on it. I see no reason to deviate. Exchange negotiations and such are done much more quickly compared to the buidling of pos wallet it self.

Let's not get side tracked here from the original goal.


All of these arrangements have their potential flaws and weaknesses, but no amount of effort can produce such a perfectly secure form of security. We must pick the better of all the options and stick to helping it work. POS is more secure then POW relatively speaking. Let's build a general POS wallet, and make sure it happens soon.

Also bear in mind Apex was a dead coin to start with, with little or no stake. It's 51% of the stake that is needed, not 51% of the entire supply. A lot of difference.

About the weakness of PoS: APEX (pure PoS) was just successfully attacked see

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cleanup-ill-attack-some-coins-i-owned-apexcoin-for-90-blocks-897493

It's good idea to ask rofo about his opinion!

I personally prefer Magi solution over standard POS but my opinionis not important here.

Best!

At this point, all the options are on the table, I suppose all that is needed is a final "go ahead" word to get out of the dilly-dally

I think the Magi-clone Pos 2.0 is likely the fastest/best that can be achieved at this point.

Can the community (or Rofo as ultimate arbiter) give the word for "go ahead" or "no go"?

There will be a necessary adjustments & testing phase, so even with a "go" word right now, it will just be the beginning, and it may take a couple of weeks for technical stuff, testing & polishing, and then once finalized, there will be extra time to warn all exchanges & pools, ensure they all have the new code and agree on the switch, etc.

An exchange-based switch will introduce further delays, first for negotiations, then to give everyone time to exchange (once the old chain is dead and not mined anymore, it will be stuck, and people won't be able to send funds). A premine distribution script will cut that down to just agreeing on the switch-over height, but will put a very strict deadline on the switch.

Addition to eagleflies' post, I'd add in order to avoid misunderstanding, that the number of coins in the example is for stake per transaction; one can stake as many coins as he wishes in his wallet but he must split coins over different transactions. As to magi, if one has concerns, maybe it's better to check it out, running magi client in the mainnet or testnet (for easly mining coins in testnet & staking test); test it under conditions we have specific concerns.

Fully understood the PoS has been talked very much in NOBL community and people here want to see a running PoS ASAP. I'd like to provide any help I can do for, to cooperate with eagleflies for the general PoS, or if you want to take the PoS-II course. It would be easy & quick to just fork magi source code for the test purpose if one wishes. Feel free dropping me a PM if there're any things I can do for.

Of merge mining on a pow/pos network is considered i would definately join lite/dogecoin for massive hash.

Just a thought:

What about, like Magi, a M7M PoW/PoS hybrid so Nobl could be merge mined with Magi? Or doesn't that make sense due to the hashpower? More security this way that transactions are processed fast enough.

Yesterday we held an IRC meeting and main point of discussion was either we should choose 'typical PoS' or PoS-II from Magi Coin.
I would like to share with you quick explanation of PoS-II benefits presented by Joe:

"19:55 can you briefly give me a run down of advantages your pos-ii have over general pos?
19:55 because until few days ago i have never heard about your coin or your pos-ii
19:55 no problem, I can take an example
19:55 there will be three situation typically
19:55 #1 coins < 100 (number is just example), one will never get PoS rewards
19:55 #noblecoin coins > 100 but < 2000, one will get PoS rewards effectively; offline staking is allowed, but one has to keep wallet online after a few days; if he missed the day of getting PoS rewards, he will miss that forever until he restart PoS
19:55 #noblecoin coins > 2000, getting stake is a bit disadvantage; at some conditions, staking is like the situation with 500 coins in stake
19:55 actually #4, if one has huge coins in stake, he will get nothing at all
19:55 you can see the advantages:
19:55 1) the network activity will be more than the regular PoS
19:55 2) one can't stake huge amount of coin to attack the network
19:55 let me know what you think, or you're confused about this
19:55 I am trying to overcome the deficiency of the original PoS, hope we have improved it
"

At this point we consider testing both approaches.

That was kind of my argument for PoS 2.0. I don't know too much about the magi code, but from what Joe has told us it makes it more 51% resistant. But then on the other hand it is less tested and more risky.

I'm not trying to push the community one way or the other, but my vote is for PoS 2.0 if Joe will help out with it.

Can we have a proper vote of what people want, posted on here please?

Keep in mind a "generic" PoS does not automatically equate to security: generic PoS needs many wallets staking 24/7 to have a high enough stake difficulty to be secure, or a very reliable automatic checkpoint service... but then you have a centralized authority, and that leaves the network vulnerable to forks whenever it's down (for whatever reason).

The above is not speculation: more than one PoS chain I host explorers for faces it.

It is time indeed. Also as I mentioned before, we need to decide so we don't waste peoples time by having multiple people work on the same goal.

Joe and I spoke over the irc and we also had discussions regarding all options that are on the table.

Here are the ideas we have discussed:

- We need some form of better security as soon as possible. Originally we were doing a general pos-wallet swap with palmdetroit involved. I see little reason to deviate from rofo's approach.

- All arrangements no matter general pos, pos 2.0, or pow, pom all have their weaknesses. I am in favor of getting some kind of POS over with and regard 'advantages' of alternatives other than general POS to be issues in the future, not an immediate concern. We need better security, and we need it soon.

- Myeagleflies has already been working on a general POS wallet, so I would not like to side track an option that is already building and preparing to deliver something real, not just as topic of discussion.

- General POS does not preclude any success 'due to it being old' - that part has little to do with the 'lack of innovation' and everything to do with what you DO based on a solidly founded coin with a brand name.



Based on these ideas, I ask that we as a community prioritize on the most imminent issue of better security for nobl and just as importantly remember that we need something soon, not 2 months later. That's 2 months of possibility a multipool can mess with nobl and double spend. Time is against us, and I see little reason to deviate from rofo's approach with palmdetroit.

Let's go with building a general pos wallet for an exchange-based swap as soon as possible. At this point in time, I see little significant advantage in deviating to anything else when that effort is already on going- and I can assure you unless your innovations are groundbreaking enough to be bitcoin 2.0, it's not big enough as some people hope them to be in terms of attracting investors.


General POS wallet, and exchange-based swap. Let's agree and not dally or deviate anymore. We have waited long enough, and it's time we go to POS as we planned

I believe it was going to be a pure POS instead of a hybrid and it was going to be a hard fork.

I also like 10% interest to begin with.

Sounds like a good amount of movement and involvement is taking place with many members now. This is always a good sign. Even with BTC dropping below $200, this technology is going to continue to grow.

I assume the following discussion is based on the community will go with PoS-II.

@eagleflies, I replied to your PM. Also I am posting the same things I am thinking in order to proceed (correct me if these subjects were already covered)

#1 The first thing to decide might be working with which coin source; it could be more compatible by adding PoS into NOBL original code (but will take time); and in contrast it would be easy and quick by work withing magi's code and change it for NOBL.

#2 PoS-II design, like maximum allowed stake days (depending on amount of coins) etc (these mentioned in the magi post); this part somehow needs to figure carefully

(guess you guys already discussed, sorry if I missed the point) is NOBL going to be a pure PoS or PoW/PoS hybrid? will PoS be plugged in by a hard fork?

In a quick way, we can adapt magi code to NOBL and put it on the testnet to test the compatibility and stability. In any case, #2 will need a bit figure with math (determine coin age parameters); if no one else can do it, I can get it done but I'll need some time to work on it.

Simpler is probably better at this point: more visuals means more extra work, which means extra delays. Might as well postpone other improvements to the next version!

What is Black Wallet??

I have just built Magi Coin's wallet. The good news is it is pretty basic from visual point of view. It is close to core bitcoin-qt wallet. So as the very minimum we will need only to change the loading screen. Apart of that we could (but do not have to) change the icons which are shown in the wallet.

I will add 500k Noble.

I believe around 300k, ill check it out for the exact amount.

I'm picking up on this a bit to help out. Can we get together a bounty again seeing as we don't have access to much at the moment?

I think there might be some left from the last community fund. I'll add 200k noble to it.

So if anyone fancies designing a new wallet we will try to get a decent bounty together