Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS - page 155. (Read 1053098 times)

Thanks for the summary!

To have people staking, the max stake age and max stake amount are important, i.e you want to reward someone leaving a wallet with 100 coins 24/7 probably more than someone with 10000 coins that stakes once per month: the first will actively defend and support the network, the second may put it at risk. Under PoS, stakers replace miners, it should be worth it staking even if you are not super-rich.

Joe is trying to achieve secure PoS with Magi, it's not simple, you have to balance security with incentive and everything, and there is no magic bullet, but it's a goal worth achieving IMHO.

For 3, keeping a portion of PoW, at least initially would help, if the miners/pools follow, the consensus on the new chain will be easier to achieve.

Yes 4 has risks associated with it, and being a "penny stock" also has risks. Another area where there is no magic bullet.

And finally about the 100% PoS initially, this might be complicated once you factor compound interest, network stability issues, etc. It was discussed with coin age as a limiter (which would have skirted the previous issues), but if the old blockchain is not ported over, all coins will be "new".

That said, I'm a very minor Noble holder.

Indeed 5% seems too low to effectively secure the network. 12% better, and possibly even a bit higher (i.e. 20% - 30% range); in the short term network security (staking) is more important than inflation.

Also pls consider a system of constant amount of coins like Ethereum so that inflation decreases over time (as opposed to constant inflation, which is the case with a constant POS rate, even if it's low...).

Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far:

1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%.  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9096942
2. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10%
3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange.
4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 
5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do."

Here's my $.02 on each:
[1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block.
[2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS.
[3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos.
[4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down.
[5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world.

Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points.

Wow, Coin Magi is helping NOBL! It's good because they have introduced interresting innovations with Magi.

Distribution script for testing:

https://chainz.cryptoid.info/nobl/noble.distrib.txt

(based on current balances, I can easily regenerate at later time for any block height, divide the amounts, etc.)

I think slightly higher. At 5% it isn't worth leaving a computer on staking IMO.

I think rofo decided on 12% from what I can remember.

That would be a good news, been discussing PoS issues with Joe a bit in the last weeks/months, and what he's doing goes in the right direction IMHO.

The issue with "normal" PoS is that if you do not have a lot of wallets staking 24/7 with lots of funds, the network is at a risk of forks when a "whale" comes online once in a while with poor connectivity, and thus can extract a lot of blocks successfully very fast (as diff will be low), and those blocks may not propagate fast enough, which will result in a fork.

I will make and post a distribution script (from current balances) so people can test/check if that works.

Sounds interesting. Be careful not to have too many people working on a pos fork now, otherwise you may end up with several wallets and disappointed helping hands.

How would this distribution method work for the coins held by exchanges? I suppose they would need to know in advance to expect new coins and what the ratio would be.

I agree with 5-10%. No high pos.

Just keep the stake rates steady along that line.

I personally believe 5% to be more then enough. We are going for a good, professional crypto currency here. 5% is more then plenty for inflation.

1. I think we should have very moderate to small inflation rate at PoS stage. No "High PoS".
With PoW, when calculated year-to-year starting from now (1.8 bln + another 2.6 bln in 365 days), the PoW inflation now is 144%.
For PoS, in my opinion maybe 5%-10% a year would be good. The highest PoS coins have seen a big hype (see HYP), but then the fall is very dramatic, because of the enormous supply.

2. I think we can make a transition to PoS at a "round number" like 2.0 or 2.1 bln NOBL (depending when will we manage to have a running PoS wallet)/

3. I think we should distribute new PoS NOBLes using the fairglu'd automated script method on some clone of 100% premined PoS coin.

4. IMO it would be good to divide the money units (coins) in circulation by 5 or 10 to avoid 1-digit satoshi price range (Ratio 5:1 or 10:1. In this scenario, 1 mln old NOBL would equal 200k or 100k of new PoS NOBL, distributed evenly to all existing addresses, redeemable at any time in the future from your old wallet.dat).

I like this idea very much.

I checked the numbers:
- We are at 1.881 bln NOBL right now, after burning:
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/nobl/#@inflation

- With 7.2 mln NOBL being mined every day we will reach 2 bln again in 16.5 days (about Jan 28th/29th). If we manage to have running PoS wallet by then, it would be perfect, i think. IMO it would be the best moment to stop the PoW constant supply, which is mostly dumped instantly at marker by Lifeforce, Wafflepool etc. Next "round" number. 2.1 bln, we will reach in about 30 days. I think that a round number is a good number to cut the PoW mining.

Another thing to consider: I think that staying in 1-digit satoshi price range is never good for a coin. Why? Because with X sat every even smallest price change (from 6 to 7 satoshi for example) has to be always more than 10% (from 6 to 7 sat it's 16.6%) — so it's more difficult to find a "fair" price, because there is nothing inbetween.

That's why i think we should not use 1:1 distribution, but for example 10:1.

I have started working on a PoS wallet for Noblecoin. This is just the very beginning so please do not expect miracles anytime soon.

However I would like to ask everyone on this thread what is your opinion on PoS parameters which should be chosen. Feel free to elaborate why you think those are best for us. Maybe someone did research into PoS parameters and would like to share results? I would love to hear that!

How is the team coming together?

Join us #Noblecoin on freenode irc

We can talk things out further.

Not sure yet, but I'm guessing in about a month in the worst case.

Maybe I can help with that.

Rofo's just taking break from nobl and focusing on NOXT. Little has changed, we are all just more aware of what it takes to do a start up.

Rofo, You scared the shit out of me with your previous post.. You have been a beacon of light for me and many others in this altcoin darkness.

I'm happy at the amount of support shown from some of the long term community members and I agree with them: You need a team. I'm happy you have shown your frustrations finally, I think this has woken us all up.

I have an important event in hosting in 2 weeks. After that I will be in contact with you all again to help out where I can. I just hope we can do it with you rofo, rather than without you.

I dont have much of a history with noble and didnt follow the coin closely so I am a bit surprised by what happened, but I am not going to blame rofo. He sounded really frustrated and disappointed and I can understand that. Putting effort into a project only to see that contacting a scammy pump-group and putting up 4 pages with shyiny graphics and no content and call them "whitepaper" leads to better results must be frustrating. But this is just the sad sate of crypto. Plus, some of his PMs seem to have been really bad, I wouldnt want to run a coin nowadays.

I was absolutely not surprised to see people burning noble to noxt and dumping them. Give people an opportunity to manipulate or an arbitrage opportunity and some of them will take it. Half this community will probably sell their own grandmother for 0.5BTC. Just expect the worst. I could totally understand if somebody doesnt want to be part of all this. However, it would be really sad to see rofo go. Crypto doesnt need more bobs, but more rofos.

It is probably a good idea for rofo to not totally leave noble but share the responsibilities. You can take brakes from crypto that way when you feel you need it. At the very least the reactions in this thread are encouraging. Personally I would like to help, but I dont have the skills needed (neither technical nor pr) nor do I have much time (job + family). What I can do is read the thread and share my opinion whenever I feel it could be helpfull.