ODI cricket and general cricketing discussion [self - mod] - page 562.

Litzki1990

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 09, 2023, 01:09:21 AM

Quote from: Juggy777 on August 08, 2023, 11:46:56 PM

@Sithara007 I agree with you given the limited time Green gets he’s done well for himself and I personally believe that he’s an valuable part of the team. Lastly Stokes developed over a period of time and I believe that Green is yet young and can develop himself further as he gets more and more experience hence wait for a while before you’ll compare him to others.

Cameroon Green is still nowhere near Ben Stokes. But he has become an integral part of the Australian team across different formats. And the best thing is that Green is quite young. He just turned 24 years. On the other hand, Ben Stokes is 8 years elder to him, and already has close to 100 test matches under his name. Along with players such as Marnus Labuschagne and Todd Murphy, Green represents the next generation of Australian cricketers. He already has 24 test matches to his name, but it needs to be seen what the future holds for him.

Cameroon Green is one of the most important players in Australian cricket. He is highly regarded in all three formats of cricket. The Australian all-rounder was the most expensive player in the last IPL. Cameroon Green's career has just started, his current performance shows that he will make a huge contribution to Australian cricket. Barring injury, Cameroon Green is considered to be one of the best players across the three formats.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 08, 2023, 10:13:22 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 08, 2023, 08:10:22 AM

Cameroon Green still got a lot to prove with the ball, so far in his 20-25 outing he didn't do any wonders when he got cheery. He's the batter who knows how to ball a bit.

To give you an example Green took 30 wickets in 24 matches and Thakur did the same in just 10 matches. Hard to find seam all rounder like a Stokes, they are a rare breed.

Well.. I am afraid that you are not looking at the complete picture. Australia normally go with an all-pace attack or with 3 pacers and 1 spinner. They do have some high quality pacers (Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood, Boland.etc). This means that Green doesn't get much of an opportunity to bowl. Still, if you look at his bowling average, then it is quite decent (36.03). Now coming to Shardul, he is essentially a bowler who can bat a bit. He has taken 30 wickets from 10 matches at an average of 25.96, which is quite decent for a bowler. But as far as batting is concerned, Green is much ahead of Shardul.

Well, please enlighten me about the definition of all rounder.

One is batting all rounder (green), who hardly performs with the ball and yet to win any matches with the bat when playing in away conditions, in contrast the next guy is bowling allrounder. Who has noteworthy performance with the ball and match winning, some would say match saving performance with the bat.

Who would you rate better? My money on the latter every single time. Doesn't matter the combination.

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Quote from: Juggy777 on August 08, 2023, 11:46:56 PM

@Sithara007 I agree with you given the limited time Green gets he’s done well for himself and I personally believe that he’s an valuable part of the team. Lastly Stokes developed over a period of time and I believe that Green is yet young and can develop himself further as he gets more and more experience hence wait for a while before you’ll compare him to others.

Cameroon Green is still nowhere near Ben Stokes. But he has become an integral part of the Australian team across different formats. And the best thing is that Green is quite young. He just turned 24 years. On the other hand, Ben Stokes is 8 years elder to him, and already has close to 100 test matches under his name. Along with players such as Marnus Labuschagne and Todd Murphy, Green represents the next generation of Australian cricketers. He already has 24 test matches to his name, but it needs to be seen what the future holds for him.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 08, 2023, 10:13:22 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 08, 2023, 08:10:22 AM

Cameroon Green still got a lot to prove with the ball, so far in his 20-25 outing he didn't do any wonders when he got cheery. He's the batter who knows how to ball a bit.

To give you an example Green took 30 wickets in 24 matches and Thakur did the same in just 10 matches. Hard to find seam all rounder like a Stokes, they are a rare breed.

Well.. I am afraid that you are not looking at the complete picture. Australia normally go with an all-pace attack or with 3 pacers and 1 spinner. They do have some high quality pacers (Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood, Boland.etc). This means that Green doesn't get much of an opportunity to bowl. Still, if you look at his bowling average, then it is quite decent (36.03). Now coming to Shardul, he is essentially a bowler who can bat a bit. He has taken 30 wickets from 10 matches at an average of 25.96, which is quite decent for a bowler. But as far as batting is concerned, Green is much ahead of Shardul.

@Sithara007 I agree with you given the limited time Green gets he’s done well for himself and I personally believe that he’s an valuable part of the team. Lastly Stokes developed over a period of time and I believe that Green is yet young and can develop himself further as he gets more and more experience hence wait for a while before you’ll compare him to others.

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Quote from: JSRAW on August 08, 2023, 08:10:22 AM

Cameroon Green still got a lot to prove with the ball, so far in his 20-25 outing he didn't do any wonders when he got cheery. He's the batter who knows how to ball a bit.

To give you an example Green took 30 wickets in 24 matches and Thakur did the same in just 10 matches. Hard to find seam all rounder like a Stokes, they are a rare breed.

Well.. I am afraid that you are not looking at the complete picture. Australia normally go with an all-pace attack or with 3 pacers and 1 spinner. They do have some high quality pacers (Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood, Boland.etc). This means that Green doesn't get much of an opportunity to bowl. Still, if you look at his bowling average, then it is quite decent (36.03). Now coming to Shardul, he is essentially a bowler who can bat a bit. He has taken 30 wickets from 10 matches at an average of 25.96, which is quite decent for a bowler. But as far as batting is concerned, Green is much ahead of Shardul.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 06, 2023, 12:04:18 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Deepak Chahar looked promising in white ball cricket but after his injury, he kinda gave up internationals and focused on IPL only.

Deepak Chahar and Shardul Thakur are bowlers who can be decent with the bat. I would still refrain from calling them as allrounders. They lack consistency with the bat. I would consider Hardik Pandya as a genuine allrounder. He is more or less consistent with both the departments nowadays. BTW, I don't know whether Deepak will be able to stay free from injury for a long time. His story is similar to that of Jasprit Bumrah, but the difference is that injury resulted in his career getting destroyed even before it got started.

Shardul Thakur and Deepak Chahar have batted well at times but they are not professional all-rounders. But if their batting can be worked on then surely they will do well in batting because they have enough talent in batting. Hardik Pandya, currently one of India's most reliable all-rounders is considered across all three formats of Indian cricket. I would consider Hardik Pandya as the fastest bowling all-rounder after Ben Stokes. Right now Shakib Al Hasan is on top of the list of the best all-rounders in the world, Hardik Pandya will become one of the best all-rounders in the world in the absence of Shakib Al Hasan. One of the biggest hurdles in Indian cricket right now is injuries. Several Indian cricketers, including Jasprit Bumrah, are now suffering from injuries that threaten their careers.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 07, 2023, 10:36:45 PM

Agreed. Seam bowling allrounders are crucial, if India want to have a good record in SENA nations. And since Hardik is no longer playing test cricket, the only available option at present is Shardul Thakur. But the problem is that Shardul is essentially a bowler who can bat a bit. I would rather prefer someone who is essentially a batsmen, and can bowl. Someone like Cameroon Green of Australia and Ben Stokes of England. At present India lacks someone who can fit into that position. You are right on Kapil Dev and Manoj Prabhakar. But even after them we had Sourav Ganguly who opened bowling a couple of times in test cricket.

Cameroon Green still got a lot to prove with the ball, so far in his 20-25 outing he didn't do any wonders when he got cheery. He's the batter who knows how to ball a bit.

To give you an example Green took 30 wickets in 24 matches and Thakur did the same in just 10 matches. Hard to find seam all rounder like a Stokes, they are a rare breed.

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Quote from: darewaller on August 06, 2023, 03:05:00 PM

BCCI doing too much but one thing is still not going into their favor as they are not going for the seam wickets which are also important because you can't go always with spinners you have to manage something for the seam bowlers and seam bowling all-rounders as well which are important like we can watch in England and Australia few years back we have good craze about this when Kapil Dev, and then we have Madan Lal and Manoj Prabhakar but then suddenly all wipe out, and we are losing this all just because of spinners friendly pitches which are helping mostly at home and countries like West Indies never helpful in SENA countries.

Sri Lanka and Pakistan still have this luxury, but sadly we never try in this way and have seam bowling all-rounders which bring good results in all conditions we can rely on them in SENA countries as well.

Agreed. Seam bowling allrounders are crucial, if India want to have a good record in SENA nations. And since Hardik is no longer playing test cricket, the only available option at present is Shardul Thakur. But the problem is that Shardul is essentially a bowler who can bat a bit. I would rather prefer someone who is essentially a batsmen, and can bowl. Someone like Cameroon Green of Australia and Ben Stokes of England. At present India lacks someone who can fit into that position. You are right on Kapil Dev and Manoj Prabhakar. But even after them we had Sourav Ganguly who opened bowling a couple of times in test cricket.

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Quote from: Tony116 on August 06, 2023, 11:50:36 AM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Quote from: Tony116 on August 06, 2023, 05:11:35 AM

@JSRAW So isn’t it going to be a good idea to have Hardik Pandya play for the odi and t20s, and play Shardul Thakur for test?

Management already doing this.

Well, okay, then this is going to solve the problem of India, not having a fast bowling all-rounder. But I just wonder if he(Shardul Thakur) is going to be reliable against bigger opponents like Australia, England, New Zealand, especially on bigger stages like the World Cup. I know that he can be economical if he is disciplined. But is disciplined enough against those bigger opponents?

And I don’t want anyone to have the idea that I am actually trying to insult Shardul Thakur. I am just genuinely asking.

In test cricket, he already performed in SENA countries (minus NZ, yet to play there) and played a key role in 4-5 matches with bat and ball.

In ODI, so far he did an okay job but a bigger stage like the World Cup brings its own pressure and it's a tough world out there in comparison to bilateral so we have to wait and watch.

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Quote from: darewaller on August 06, 2023, 03:05:00 PM

Quote from: Sithara007 on August 06, 2023, 12:04:18 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Deepak Chahar looked promising in white ball cricket but after his injury, he kinda gave up internationals and focused on IPL only.

Deepak Chahar and Shardul Thakur are bowlers who can be decent with the bat. I would still refrain from calling them as allrounders. They lack consistency with the bat. I would consider Hardik Pandya as a genuine allrounder. He is more or less consistent with both the departments nowadays. BTW, I don't know whether Deepak will be able to stay free from injury for a long time. His story is similar to that of Jasprit Bumrah, but the difference is that injury resulted in his career getting destroyed even before it got started.

BCCI doing too much but one thing is still not going into their favor as they are not going for the seam wickets which are also important because you can't go always with spinners you have to manage something for the seam bowlers and seam bowling all-rounders as well which are important like we can watch in England and Australia few years back we have good craze about this when Kapil Dev, and then we have Madan Lal and Manoj Prabhakar but then suddenly all wipe out, and we are losing this all just because of spinners friendly pitches which are helping mostly at home and countries like West Indies never helpful in SENA countries.

Sri Lanka and Pakistan still have this luxury, but sadly we never try in this way and have seam bowling all-rounders which bring good results in all conditions we can rely on them in SENA countries as well.

@Sithara007, right now BCCI is definitely trying to bring up players who can actually perform well with the bat and ball. And Shardul Thakur is certainly not very consistent with the bat. But he can provide good performance at times of need. And towards the end of the innings, throwing the bat around and connecting is the most important part. I would not say that they can do it properly. But it is what it is.

@darewaller, in home conditions. Every team is going to want to take advantage. I think that is the reason why the BCCI do not prepare fast bowling tracks. Obviously it can be other reasons. But this is what I think.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 06, 2023, 12:04:18 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Deepak Chahar looked promising in white ball cricket but after his injury, he kinda gave up internationals and focused on IPL only.

Deepak Chahar and Shardul Thakur are bowlers who can be decent with the bat. I would still refrain from calling them as allrounders. They lack consistency with the bat. I would consider Hardik Pandya as a genuine allrounder. He is more or less consistent with both the departments nowadays. BTW, I don't know whether Deepak will be able to stay free from injury for a long time. His story is similar to that of Jasprit Bumrah, but the difference is that injury resulted in his career getting destroyed even before it got started.

BCCI doing too much but one thing is still not going into their favor as they are not going for the seam wickets which are also important because you can't go always with spinners you have to manage something for the seam bowlers and seam bowling all-rounders as well which are important like we can watch in England and Australia few years back we have good craze about this when Kapil Dev, and then we have Madan Lal and Manoj Prabhakar but then suddenly all wipe out, and we are losing this all just because of spinners friendly pitches which are helping mostly at home and countries like West Indies never helpful in SENA countries.

Sri Lanka and Pakistan still have this luxury, but sadly we never try in this way and have seam bowling all-rounders which bring good results in all conditions we can rely on them in SENA countries as well.

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Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Deepak Chahar looked promising in white ball cricket but after his injury, he kinda gave up internationals and focused on IPL only.

Deepak Chahar and Shardul Thakur are bowlers who can be decent with the bat. I would still refrain from calling them as allrounders. They lack consistency with the bat. I would consider Hardik Pandya as a genuine allrounder. He is more or less consistent with both the departments nowadays. BTW, I don't know whether Deepak will be able to stay free from injury for a long time. His story is similar to that of Jasprit Bumrah, but the difference is that injury resulted in his career getting destroyed even before it got started.

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Quote from: JSRAW on August 06, 2023, 08:00:33 AM

Quote from: Tony116 on August 06, 2023, 05:11:35 AM

@JSRAW So isn’t it going to be a good idea to have Hardik Pandya play for the odi and t20s, and play Shardul Thakur for test?

Management already doing this.

Well, okay, then this is going to solve the problem of India, not having a fast bowling all-rounder. But I just wonder if he(Shardul Thakur) is going to be reliable against bigger opponents like Australia, England, New Zealand, especially on bigger stages like the World Cup. I know that he can be economical if he is disciplined. But is disciplined enough against those bigger opponents?

And I don’t want anyone to have the idea that I am actually trying to insult Shardul Thakur. I am just genuinely asking.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 05, 2023, 09:21:44 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 01:57:08 PM

Plenty of superior bowlers are there and plenty of superior batters as well but not one seam bowler who can bat a bit like Shardul.

Hardik was the only one in recent times but he gave up test cricket for good, due to his injuries so on seaming wickets Shardul becomes first choice seam all rounder.

Seam bowling allrounders have become some sort of rarity in India. At this point, Shardul and Hardik are the only ones who come under this category. Venkatesh Iyer was showing some promise recently, but then his form declined. And in domestic circuit, there are hardly any seam bowling allrounders. And this has a lot to do with the spin-friendly pitches that are being used for domestic cricket in India. 1-2 decades ago, India had a number of such players including Sanjay Bangar and Irfan Pathan.

Venky is a dibbly dobbly seamer, I reckon Virat with his hilarious bowling action might bowl better than him. Grin

Deepak Chahar looked promising in white ball cricket but after his injury, he kinda gave up internationals and focused on IPL only.

Quote from: Tony116 on August 06, 2023, 05:11:35 AM

@JSRAW So isn’t it going to be a good idea to have Hardik Pandya play for the odi and t20s, and play Shardul Thakur for test?

Management already doing this.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 05, 2023, 09:21:44 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 01:57:08 PM

Plenty of superior bowlers are there and plenty of superior batters as well but not one seam bowler who can bat a bit like Shardul.

Hardik was the only one in recent times but he gave up test cricket for good, due to his injuries so on seaming wickets Shardul becomes first choice seam all rounder.

Seam bowling allrounders have become some sort of rarity in India. At this point, Shardul and Hardik are the only ones who come under this category. Venkatesh Iyer was showing some promise recently, but then his form declined. And in domestic circuit, there are hardly any seam bowling allrounders. And this has a lot to do with the spin-friendly pitches that are being used for domestic cricket in India. 1-2 decades ago, India had a number of such players including Sanjay Bangar and Irfan Pathan.

@JSRAW So isn’t it going to be a good idea to have Hardik Pandya play for the odi and t20s, and play Shardul Thakur for test? Is that the way they are thinking? Because by playing different players in different formats of cricket are going to be able to keep the players healthy and out of injury.

@Sithara007 I agree that There is a genuine lack of fast bowling allrounders right now in almost every team. So I think India is trying to take the players that they have already and make them better.

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Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 01:57:08 PM

Plenty of superior bowlers are there and plenty of superior batters as well but not one seam bowler who can bat a bit like Shardul.

Hardik was the only one in recent times but he gave up test cricket for good, due to his injuries so on seaming wickets Shardul becomes first choice seam all rounder.

Seam bowling allrounders have become some sort of rarity in India. At this point, Shardul and Hardik are the only ones who come under this category. Venkatesh Iyer was showing some promise recently, but then his form declined. And in domestic circuit, there are hardly any seam bowling allrounders. And this has a lot to do with the spin-friendly pitches that are being used for domestic cricket in India. 1-2 decades ago, India had a number of such players including Sanjay Bangar and Irfan Pathan.

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Quote from: Tony116 on August 05, 2023, 01:52:36 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 11:59:46 AM

~snip~

I understand. You made a very important point. But what I was thinking is that India does have better players compared to him right? So why is India going to use him? I am not talking about fast or spin bowlers separately. I think he is going to be a folder that will probably be used in the middle overs. I genuinely think that India has better options when it comes to bowling in the middle overs. I am quite sure that India is not going to use him as a bowler who is going to finish the innings for them.

But I will say this, his statistics are really good. Especially outside India. So maybe they will take a chance with him.

Plenty of superior bowlers are there and plenty of superior batters as well but not one seam bowler who can bat a bit like Shardul.

Hardik was the only one in recent times but he gave up test cricket for good, due to his injuries so on seaming wickets Shardul becomes first choice seam all rounder.

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Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 11:59:46 AM

Quote from: Tony116 on August 05, 2023, 09:17:33 AM

But in general, it should be the opposite right? He does not have that much pace. So he should get torn apart by the batting lineup of bigger opponent. But it genuinely seems to work differently with him.

The thing is, I still do not trust him, even though his statistics does look better. I would only be able to trust him when he will show good performance against bigger opponents, like Australia, England, New Zealand consistently.

Umm well, take the example of Chris Woakes. He's considered a handy cricketer in English conditions, one could say fine asset for the team as he bats at number 8 and is incredibly good with the bat at this position and ofc fine bowler when bowling in swing conditions (England)

But when he steps out of England he turns into shit and I'm being generous when using "Shit" for him. He's just too disappointing when playing away and Shardul is exactly the opposite, hope you get the point.

BTW Shardul already performed exceptionally well in Australia, England and South Africa.

I understand. You made a very important point. But what I was thinking is that India does have better players compared to him right? So why is India going to use him? I am not talking about fast or spin bowlers separately. I think he is going to be a folder that will probably be used in the middle overs. I genuinely think that India has better options when it comes to bowling in the middle overs. I am quite sure that India is not going to use him as a bowler who is going to finish the innings for them.

But I will say this, his statistics are really good. Especially outside India. So maybe they will take a chance with him.

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Quote from: romero121 on August 05, 2023, 07:25:05 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on August 04, 2023, 10:14:48 PM

Quote from: GigaBit on August 04, 2023, 06:06:40 PM

Despite having doubts and concerns about the upcoming Asia Cup. Finally, a resolution has been achieved through negotiations. This tournament will be started with Pakistan and Nepal match. In group B, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka could potentially compete each other, According to the prediction Sri Lanka expected to take the lead in the group. On the other hand, in Group A, the cricketing giants India and Pakistan will fight. Predicting the outcome from their match is a bit challenging. India is a dependable team that consistently performs well, but it's hard to predict about the outcomes for Pakistan. The match on Sep 02 will be a fascinating match in the entire Asia Cup 2023.

Group A only has two strong teams and Nepal is not performing well right now. They performed poorly during the ICC Men's Cricket World Cup Qualifier, and failed to defeat any of the top teams. Asia Cup is going to be a big test for them. First they will face Pakistan (at Multan), and after that they need to face India at Kandy (Pallekele International Cricket Stadium). An upset win would do a lot of good for them. In Group B, the situation is a little bit more unpredictable. Afghanistan can upset either of the two top teams (Sri Lanka and Bangladesh).

As mentioned an upset win is the only choice for Nepal and have the chance of qualifying as the top two team of the group. Nepal is too young to defeat India and Pakistan and stand its chance. It have got good players, while playing against the top teams it isn't an easy thing to win. With the group B, everything is unpredictable as all the three teams were in similar strength. Sri Lanka used to be the favourite, but its recent performance were really worse and they need more encouragement and improvement.

Nepal team belongs some good players but they cannot contain their emotions when they play against India or Pakistan. In the past I have noticed that sometimes they perform amazingly and sometimes they end up in a major disaster. If they have consistency in their performance, they would have done well. On the other hand, Sri Lanka's condition in Group B is slightly worse than before, but Sri Lanka will survive. Bangladesh can flare up at any time where Afghanistan cannot perform well in any other format except T20.

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Quote from: Tony116 on August 05, 2023, 09:17:33 AM

Quote from: JSRAW on August 05, 2023, 08:29:26 AM

Actually, it's the opposite. He flourishes and performs well when playing on seam, bouncy and fast wickets, hence he only features in SENA (SA, ENG,NZ,AUS) countries.

He debuted in India tho but only bowled less than 2 overs and got injured. After that, he never got a chance to play in India and considering his domestic record on Indian tracks, it seems a right decision.

But in general, it should be the opposite right? He does not have that much pace. So he should get torn apart by the batting lineup of bigger opponent. But it genuinely seems to work differently with him.

The thing is, I still do not trust him, even though his statistics does look better. I would only be able to trust him when he will show good performance against bigger opponents, like Australia, England, New Zealand consistently.

Umm well, take the example of Chris Woakes. He's considered a handy cricketer in English conditions, one could say fine asset for the team as he bats at number 8 and is incredibly good with the bat at this position and ofc fine bowler when bowling in swing conditions (England)

But when he steps out of England he turns into shit and I'm being generous when using "Shit" for him. He's just too disappointing when playing away and Shardul is exactly the opposite, hope you get the point.

BTW Shardul already performed exceptionally well in Australia, England and South Africa.

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