Topic: Off-Topic - page 108. (Read 384417 times)

There's no convincing anyone else only you, because you alone are so worried about me based on your previous posts. I just want to make sure you know that I'll be ok. I appreciate you being worried.

I don't collect badges to mine bitcoins, I collect them to remind me our times together.

I only discredit your posts because legitimate concern does not sound like what you write, it sounds like what Silvas writes. Please take notes for the future. Otherwise I think I just earned one more badges and a whole pack of trident layers.

All of this being said, all of you guys do realise that 10 people complaining on this thread is probably <0.5% of their total orders and like even less of their total income from this venture.

If the chips don't arrive it will more than likely be a class action against Avalon, where everyone that ordered chips directly from them would get some sort of compensation. That being said it would then be on Terrahash to push some of that towards us.

Terrahash also has parts and can resell them.

But honestly, I believe chips will start arriving by next week some time.

So far I don't know what "Big Mistakes" you are talking about unless you consider not responding to every demand/troll post. They probably could have communicated a little bit better.

However as far as them having parts on order but not taking delivery or paying for them until we knew the chips were coming is actually a good business decision. Terrahash isn't stupid, they know that if there's no product they would have to try and refund as much as they can.

All of this being said, maybe those that stay and wait it out will get some sort of coupon or discount on their next purchase (I have a lot more faith in bitfury at this point than Avalon). That also being said, Avalon did a good job shipping out Batch 1 and 2 so bitfury could still pull an Avalon hah.

I might be a little biased in this whole Refund situation only because I've mitigated my losses by making large profits elsewhere (Don't put all your eggs in one basket) while some of you might have fully bet on this horse winning the race.

All of this being said, all of you guys do realise that 10 people complaining on this thread is probably <0.5% of their total orders and like even less of their total income from this venture.

Fair points,

Let's say I believe somewhat in Karma, at least in that you can try to justify something as much as you want and as long as you want but only YOU truly know if regardless of legalities if what you did was morally and ethically correct.

I personally understand TH's position and every DIY's position out there and would rather give them a chance to make things right or give them a chance to get that refund from Yifi, provide a product, or do whatever they have to do before giving them a chargeback. This is correct morally and ethically based on the type of product I purchased from them at least for me. They only need 1-2 months maximum to get back to customers with what they were able to accomplish in this area, if there is no product, there is no partial refund and a product, there isn't a full refund, then yes action can be taken.

If you feel self justified to try and kill a company that literally came into this space trying to help miners by asking for a mass exodus of refunds then go ahead no one is stopping you. Just understand you have to live with that fact that you value greed over integrity.

There's really not much else to say, there's no argument to be had on this discussion. Obviously there's a simple difference in belief on this matter regardless of Law.

You have something in common with TH's part supply.... no power supplies. 

I won't wait around quite frankly.  I've already submitted a request to TH for a refund, reminding them of FTC regulations and stating in no uncertain terms that their no refund policy is in direct violation of said regulations.
If they refuse my refund, or ignore me, I'll just file a chargeback with my CC.  If they have the balls to call me up or email me and threaten me, they'll be given one chance, and one chance only, to cease and desist without me pressing charges for harassment.  I won't f*** with them.  They may be a victim too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be the patsy losing my money, taking not only my risk, but their risk as well, for their reward.  They built profit into their price for sales, they sold up front and got their cost+profit up front; they took their reward, now it's time to shoulder the risk part.
They want to have the reward of profit, they need to understand that the risk is theirs as well.  We have the risk of non-delivery, and the hassle of having to fight to get our money back; they have the risk of non-delivery and having to give our money back and having to fight bitsyncom for their money back.

That's no different than if I sold my miners as 'pre-orders' with the only guarantee being after I get them but I 'expect' to have them in a month and ship 2 weeks after that, and 'no refunds under any circumstances'.  If I don't deliver the merchandise, I'm liable for the refund 100% in full.  If the buyer, after 2 months, decides they're tired of waiting and files a dispute - guess what?  eBay/paypal/their bank will side with them, and 100% rightfully so.  I took a risk in the hopes of making a profit.  When it goes bad (even if it's not my fault), it's on me NOT my customer.

What will be intresting is if they ever do partial refunds, the reason they cited for not having all the parts on hand for production.  If this was like they sold everything would be waiting at assembly line waiting on chips.

When you think about it bkk is the one who did the main work, developing the board.  TH really had no R/D costs, they ordered one case put together a partial board throwing hw errors.   TH maybe rented a office?  Their chip order even half they now say they never ordered.... but at one point said it was ordered.  So who knows what is ordered.  So it will be intresting to see what they subtract if they do partial refund

I am willing to bet if you do get lucky and get partial refund, the majority of money kept goes to salary.  And salary for what bkk did the work developing.  They chances are will take a big chunk for sitting there in front of computer screen, and rejecting refunds? 

And to be fair i may be jaded on my opinion because of how they threatened me when i got my paypal refund long ago. 

lol,,ya the "bridge to nowhere"

While all or most of what Silvas says is true, there's also the little matter of reality.  And getting a grasp on reality is very much the responsibility of everyone.

• People bought from Terrahash in good faith expecting a certain delivery date, but knowing the product didn't exist.
• Delivery didn't happen, and who knows right now when delivery will or will not take place?
• People want refunds, but Terrahash can't/won't give refunds.  Most of their money is tied up in orders or components.
• So your choices are right now to ride it out or take legal action.
• Riding it out means waiting until Avalon delivers, or Terrahash calls it quits.
• If Terrahash calls it quits they still have to get a refund from Avalon before you'll see anything.
• If you take legal action it will probably take longer than waiting for Avalon, and cost you more.
• Terrahash's obligation to you is to meet the product specification, (delivery being a separate issue).  I seriously doubt that any of you have a contract with them protecting you against loss of income for delayed product.
• These are the risks that you undertake in buying anything from an unproven source, regardless of their responsibilities or obligations.
• Crying about it doesn't get you anywhere.  Shit or get off the pot.

And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

Here's the music sorted; http://youtu.be/6cGTsX3O-2E

I purchased a K16 and a K64.

Besides a powersupply, what else do I need to get to get her to thrash?

I have a Dell mini laptop that I am going to use as a miner (gonna play with a raspi too, but gonna start mining with the miniDell first)

What cords do I need?

And when the time comes (pretty sure it will), what music should I play when I am setting it all up?

And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.

You have somewhat of a point, except that you fail to acknowledge that Terrahash bears the risk here.
Business is about risk and reward.  The way that a normal business arrangement where this has happened works is this
You open up preorders for something you can't provide until you get parts from somewhere else.
Your supplier fails to provide those parts in a timely fashion, or at all
Your customers get upset or feel that they may never receive their merchandise and request refunds.
They have no business arrangement with your supplier - their business arrangement is with you.  Their recourse for getting their money back is to get it back from you, and legally you are required to provide it.
Your recourse, since you have been harmed in this process, is against your supplier.  In this case, since you've paid with a semi-untraceable currency that isn't official, your option is most likely limited to civil suit

Let's call this the way it is.  Nobody wanting a refund (and using whatever option available to get it) is committing fraud.  They are not harming Terrahash.  They are protecting their assets.
Terrahash is being harmed, to be sure.   It is Bitsyncom that has already harmed Terrahash, and I believe is continuing to harm Terrahash, not the customers.

Terrahash has already implied that they will not be able to refund everyone's money if the Avalon chips never show up.  That, regardless of what anyone here wants to try to convince people, is NOT legal.
No business has the legal right to take people's money, never provide the merchandise, and then say but it's not my fault it's this guy over here so I don't have to give back everyone's money.  I don't have, or see, any problem with someone deciding (in light of what's going on with Bitsyncom and TH admitting if it goes all the way bad they will not be able to refund everyone's money) that this is an unacceptable level of risk to them and they want out.


Now, you can argue but it's not them never providing the merchandise, they're just later than they thought!  ok, great, but how long does one wait before you say ok the merchandise is never coming?  6 months?  1 year?  5 years?  or do you suggest that people just say oh well, I guess if I die and I still haven't gotten my stuff, then I know and it won't matter?
That decision - where to draw the line - is subjective, and unique to each individual.  Personally, I already believe that the avalon chips aren't ever going to materialize in enough volume to fill the orders.  I firmly believe at this point that Bitsyncom, yifu, et al have scammed all of the businesses and the whole community, and are just making excuses to try to settle people down and buy some time - maybe to move the funds to someplace they can't be recovered and get away.

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.