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Topic: Off-Topic - page 107. (Read 384416 times)

legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
August 16, 2013, 02:44:22 PM
End of next week, is here now.. running out of patience.

While we have send out some chip orders, there is currently ~200k chips stuck in custom right at this moment for about 2 weeks now, this matter is very painful for us and our customers. As majority of the chip orders ( 70% ) totaling ~800k is made between early and mid-may resulting in a tight time frame to work with. We do have more chips coming in via different route next week which will ease this a little bit. (you can take this as chips will resume shipping by end of next week for now.)

We can expect them In Two Weeks™
Did you talk to yifu? and know something no one else in the world knows?
member
Activity: 82
Merit: 10
August 16, 2013, 02:33:26 PM
End of next week, is here now.. running out of patience.

While we have send out some chip orders, there is currently ~200k chips stuck in custom right at this moment for about 2 weeks now, this matter is very painful for us and our customers. As majority of the chip orders ( 70% ) totaling ~800k is made between early and mid-may resulting in a tight time frame to work with. We do have more chips coming in via different route next week which will ease this a little bit. (you can take this as chips will resume shipping by end of next week for now.)

We can expect them In Two Weeks™

Two Weeks after the end of civilization you mean...
By some accounts there's still Avalon B1 or at least B2 orders that haven't been delivered.  Even if my instincts screaming that these chips will never show up are wrong, which I doubt, it will be a very long time.

legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
August 16, 2013, 08:51:48 AM
End of next week, is here now.. running out of patience.

While we have send out some chip orders, there is currently ~200k chips stuck in custom right at this moment for about 2 weeks now, this matter is very painful for us and our customers. As majority of the chip orders ( 70% ) totaling ~800k is made between early and mid-may resulting in a tight time frame to work with. We do have more chips coming in via different route next week which will ease this a little bit. (you can take this as chips will resume shipping by end of next week for now.)
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 250
Buy, sell and store real cryptocurrencies
August 15, 2013, 05:37:55 PM
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 250
Buy, sell and store real cryptocurrencies
August 15, 2013, 05:25:46 PM
It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.
It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions.

If that was directed at me, could you kindly point out where I indicated anything about TH's intentions?
It wasn't, and you probably didn't.  Nor did Silvas beyond saying he was sure there was no ill intent.  However there is a lot of noise in this thread about how Terrahash should do this, that or the other.  Or how a business should be setup and run, etc.  Just seems like a lot of wasted energy to me, (and a fair degree of teenage angst from some!)  And this boggles my mind.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
August 15, 2013, 05:07:29 PM
Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.

I'm also beginning to think difficulty is going to reduce the ROI to not much. The only winnig hand is if bitcoins increase in value. If it does, you actually can make quite a bit with 52% difficulty increase each month.
No. If it requires an increase in price, you lost because you would have been better off buying Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1756
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
August 15, 2013, 05:07:14 PM
It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.
It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions.

If that was directed at me, could you kindly point out where I indicated anything about TH's intentions?
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 250
Buy, sell and store real cryptocurrencies
August 15, 2013, 04:58:22 PM
It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.
It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1756
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
August 15, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

EDIT: The above is also why a lot of business ventures go looking for venture capital from investors.  That way they're not using customer money to fund the business, they're not doing something illegal.  The investors aren't customers and know there is a real risk of losing all of their money and having nothing to show for it.  They're compensated by ownership interest in the venture.



The voice of reason!

It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.

Let me put it another way, there is a legal difference between a customer and an investor and a companies responsibility to both are VERY different.  The risk level of both is also legally VERY different.  What the vast majority of ASIC start ups currently on offer are asking for is investomers, but guess what the law doesn't allow for investomers.  According to the law you are a customer (shopping/purchasing for a good(s) or service(s), and have the appropriate risk/reward structure and protections) or you are an investor (funding the business in exchange for future considerations ie royalties, equity etc etc).

Until the BTC community starts to think like the real world on the most basic of levels these companies will continue to operate this way.

Please people stop giving away all your power (read: money).  As is clearly evident from the likes of BFL and Avalon (obviously there's others) once you pre-pay in full 99% of your power is out of your hands and the 1% you have left is most likely a long, expensive battle to recoup pennies on the dollars in a worst case.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
August 15, 2013, 02:26:08 PM
Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.

I'm also beginning to think difficulty is going to reduce the ROI to not much. The only winnig hand is if bitcoins increase in value. If it does, you actually can make quite a bit with 52% difficulty increase each month.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
August 15, 2013, 01:35:44 PM
Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 501
August 15, 2013, 01:29:34 PM
PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.

Assuming nothing goes wrong, which it always does. Bitfury thought they had PCBs. Turns out the factory forgot 2 of the layers. Things can and will go wrong. Unless the items are already physically at TH, they are a risk factor.

SO how many cases do you think they sold?  Tens-of-thousands?  More like hundreds.  They can order that many PSUs off Amazon and get free two-day delivery for crying out-loud.  Since the pc-boards are being produced locally, they can test the first one off the line and know if there are any problems immediately - unlike Bitfury, who was having them made in China.  

You worry way too much - I've had a lot more complex projects built in under a week with shipping qtys in the thousands.  You forget - they're in Silicon valley where there's a 2-day turn PCBoard shop on nearly every other corner, and not in Podunk, Kansas where there's nothing much around except corn...
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
August 15, 2013, 01:21:55 PM
PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.

Assuming nothing goes wrong, which it always does. Bitfury thought they had PCBs. Turns out the factory forgot 2 of the layers. Things can and will go wrong. Unless the items are already physically at TH, they are a risk factor.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 501
August 15, 2013, 01:16:06 PM
TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

No they do not.

1. PSUs: Not in
2. Cases: Not in
3. PCBs: Not in
4. BOM components: Yes!


PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.
member
Activity: 82
Merit: 10
August 15, 2013, 01:14:40 PM
I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?
not sure about the 2 weeks away from delivery,,,maybe never  all else is correct

Allegedly, the chips are supposed to start moving again by the end of this week last I heard according to Yifu.
There's still been no data offered on who those chips are going to, whether any of TH' chips are even on the way or not.
That's IF you believe Yifu, and I don't trust anything he says.  I don't trust him even as far as I could pick up and throw a big tractor trailer.

At this point, IMO everyone would be wise to do an assessment for themselves of whether they think the chips will ever arrive, and whether TH is in a position to deliver if/when they do and then act accordingly.
I won't recommend cancelling and trying to get a refund, nor will I recommend sticking it out.  I've made my decision for myself, and everyone else has to do the same (or has already).

legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
August 15, 2013, 01:12:54 PM
TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

No they do not.

1. PSUs: Not in
2. Cases: Not in
3. PCBs: Not in
4. BOM components: Yes!
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
August 15, 2013, 01:05:19 PM
I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?
not sure about the 2 weeks away from delivery,,,maybe never  all else is correct
gbx
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
August 15, 2013, 01:01:02 PM
I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?
hero member
Activity: 778
Merit: 563
August 15, 2013, 12:59:07 PM
And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

preorder?
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
August 15, 2013, 12:34:02 PM
A snipit from coindesk article:

One of the first to try and source Avalon chips was TerraHash, which has been producing two mining boards: a 4.5 GH/sec unit with 16 chips, and a 64 chip 18 GH/sec model. The firm will sell the boards individually, but has also been offering preassembled boxes that can take either the 4.5 GH/sec boards, or the 18 GH/sec units. The DX Mini offers up to 90 GH/sec with 20 of the smaller boards. The DX Large will take up to 10 of the bigger boards, for a total of 180 GH/sec.
 
The problem for this company is that it is still waiting on Avalon chips, and hasn’t been able to fulfill customer orders. That’s unfortunate, because the company had changed its policy in June to begin accepting preorders – and later decided to change its refund policy, declaring all orders final. The company would not return our calls.
 
Avalon says that it is still waiting for its chips, 200,000 of which it says are stuck in customs. It has 800,000 orders to fill, it admits. It has also battled allegations that it was mining with its own chips.

http://www.coindesk.com/asic-bitcoin-miner-arms-race-the-definitive-coindesk-roundup/

Of course we all know the rest of the story"
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