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Topic: [OLD] Eligius: ASIC, no registration, no fee CPPSRB BTC + 105% PPS NMC, 877 # - page 143. (Read 458255 times)

member
Activity: 60
Merit: 10
Thanks for the explanation Krakonos.
I'm still unclear on whether the existing shares I've contributed really will increase in reward over time, or if it's just that in theory my 'luck' will get closer to the pink area in the end.

Well, current shares would not (I think). But future shares would have higher value to compensate. Unfortunately I don't remember the correct math with extra credit, so I can't be sure.

You can see this when we hit more blocks in row, that your reward per share is significantly higher than expected with average luck. That's the pool repaying you extra credit :-).

(The Edit is because my browser decided to post in mid-sentece.)
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
Thanks for the explanation Krakonos.
I'm still unclear on whether the existing shares I've contributed really will increase in reward over time, or if it's just that in theory my 'luck' will get closer to the pink area in the end.

The upshot of this is.. over 5 days I've got 21% of what I expected :/
I have some other rigs pointed at btcguild and I'm getting the expected returns for my hashrates.
member
Activity: 60
Merit: 10
I seem to be getting an extremely low return for the current 400MH or so I'm throwing at eligius.
0.28BTC total over about 4 days (from mining calculator I expected about 0.25 per day)

I'm no expert, but I think it's the extra credit stuff. The pool recently has very bad luck and does not have coins to pay everyone in full. It will give you some and remember the extra credit for your address. When the luck will get better, you'll get more coins per share.

On the graphs, you can see the blue line what has been paid a the pink area what should have been paid.

The explanation of the reward system is here: http://eligius.st/wiki/index.php/Shared_Maximum_PPS
member
Activity: 60
Merit: 10
I've got a good mind to restart my miners and mine for a couple of days, just to reach the ~0.67 level and clear my remaining balance now. Damn the temps here!  Grin
Mining until you were owed ~.67 wouldn't get you paid much faster (if at all), you still have to wait for enough blocks to be found to catch up everyone with older balances than yours.

It seems his balance is pretty old (he's not mining for weeks), so it would be paid very soon.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
I seem to be getting an extremely low return for the current 400MH or so I'm throwing at eligius.
0.28BTC total over about 4 days (from mining calculator I expected about 0.25 per day)

I took a look at some graphs from other users at about the same MH, and they were getting more.
Below are my recent blocks and rewards.

Take line 2 for example - I don't understand why 3,515 shares * 0.00001919 gave me only 0.03085898 reward.
I calculate it should be about 0.067
Is this addressed in the FAQ somewhere? I'm not understanding what's going on.


19 minutes ago   4h   7m   8s   1,488   973,421   0.00005136 BTC   0.03168119 BTC   116 left   …313B9AA65606EB1FE0279A0B4
about 4 hours ago   10h   13m   21s   3,515   2,605,474   0.00001919 BTC   0.03085898 BTC   81 left   …3EFA7966240788E4FC27E21D0
about 14 hours ago   8h   57m   1s   3,106   2,419,985   0.00002066 BTC   0.02902374 BTC   Confirmed   …8DF80D12D7EDC632619FA2AE8
about 23 hours ago   6h   7m   55s   2,111   1,754,130   0.00002850 BTC   0.02735966 BTC   Confirmed   …F0DDCEC260A44E74B1C2A1BD2
about 1 day ago   4h   56m   47s   1,684   1,434,352   0.00003485 BTC   0.02622993 BTC   Confirmed   …0627353E0783620E6E965938D
about 1 day ago   9h   55m   23s   3,627   3,049,598   0.00001639 BTC   0.02531935 BTC   Confirmed   …D67A75AC6B630C32B693FBA8F
about 1 day ago   5h   19m   7s   1,861   1,623,054   0.00003080 BTC   0.02322007 BTC   Confirmed   …3705A0EC06C7114D541DD4197
about 2 days ago   1h   47m   47s   634   535,567   0.00009335 BTC   0.02210366 BTC   Confirmed   …90E9A48E8985CD4523E1AB9DC
about 2 days ago   3h   56m   50s   1,367   1,178,195   0.00004243 BTC   0.02171143 BTC   Confirmed   …B2EA25383DCD619C9ECA04480
about 2 days ago   29h   18m   36s   13,224   9,416,904   0.00000530 BTC   0.02087447 BTC   Confirmed   …3D4D1F3A970B33367A603511A


hero member
Activity: 807
Merit: 500
I've got a good mind to restart my miners and mine for a couple of days, just to reach the ~0.67 level and clear my remaining balance now. Damn the temps here!  Grin
Mining until you were owed ~.67 wouldn't get you paid much faster (if at all), you still have to wait for enough blocks to be found to catch up everyone with older balances than yours.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
I keep seeing this number halve until it reached a satoshi, so I thought this is my EC balance... Guess I'll have to wait it out then.  Cheesy
I guess, because of this, the pool thinks that you are still mining with it, thus it hasn't started to count down the timeout..

I've got a good mind to restart my miners and mine for a couple of days, just to reach the ~0.67 level and clear my remaining balance now. Damn the temps here!  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
I keep seeing this number halve until it reached a satoshi, so I thought this is my EC balance... Guess I'll have to wait it out then.  Cheesy
I guess, because of this, the pool thinks that you are still mining with it, thus it hasn't started to count down the timeout..
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Balance

Unpaid reward : 0.21928776 BTC

Edit: After this current round, you will have 55 satoshis EC left; so about 55 more blocks...

Oh, so the actual balance isn't this?:

Code:
Current block estimate : 0.00000001 BTC

I keep seeing this number halve until it reached a satoshi, so I thought this is my EC balance... Guess I'll have to wait it out then.  Cheesy
That's the estimated reward that will be added to your balance at the end of the current round.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
Balance

Unpaid reward : 0.21928776 BTC

Edit: After this current round, you will have 55 satoshis EC left; so about 55 more blocks...

Oh, so the actual balance isn't this?:

Code:
Current block estimate : 0.00000001 BTC

I keep seeing this number halve until it reached a satoshi, so I thought this is my EC balance... Guess I'll have to wait it out then.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Balance

Unpaid reward : 0.21928776 BTC

Edit: After this current round, you will have 55 satoshis EC left; so about 55 more blocks...
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last?  Shocked
Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though.
My balance is at 1 satoshi for more then a week now. Is that counted as approximately zero? Cheesy
How did that happen? Link?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last?  Shocked
Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though.
My balance is at 1 satoshi for more then a week now. Is that counted as approximately zero? Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last?  Shocked
Until we get back to the positive side of luck. If you stop mining, it's possible you might get to zero sooner, though.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
Just noticed my spare balance of ~0.21 is still here despite the fact that I've never mined to it for almost two months. How long do the 'extra credit' mode last?  Shocked
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
How did you get the orphans from that link? I couldn't see anything in the directory indicating whther or not the block orphaned. Well done though!
First I tried to use blockchain.info and parse the html looking for a green "Main chain"... but the server blocked my ip after the fist few hundreds of rows, so it didnt get me far Smiley

So I had to fetch the actual block-chain from my client, using: "getblocks", parse "inv", repeat.. and then compare the mined blocks list, against the fetched chain.

In other words, the directory gives a list like this:
Code:
0000000000000a0bb1e12a5bd988c6b1c887afacd5a22050e54f03b9f97254a7 15-Mar-2012 02:58 120K
0000000000000a04a64e7a78b31c0a15f155c6530dd3ccbc8d24177b8e0082a9 09-Feb-2012 22:42 89K
0000000000000a1f3b8b9c7b05ad381704e061adc293a6b9c01f847530ed8b00 08-May-2012 08:46 180K
0000000000000a2a686bd26e12427f808128ec0c27ca8c3405cd48221c023693 01-Mar-2012 23:19 108K
0000000000000a2e219fddcad303da476afc432ec6e478f2040bbf6d0792803c 05-Apr-2012 03:56 142K
0000000000000a3b42c84ee50e137485641abcb6d7eb33964dbbabc744ad21b7 09-Mar-2012 05:56 114K
...

... and then you have the actual chain:
Code:
000000000000066c6e629b2fb49c7fcc52b82fe9833f328e0c3943856facf231 160000
00000000000008754857069b7a1df3acd1643a7ffe1623eceebcb7346ffd6a63 160001
0000000000000320ae4ff160201e80592869b4e09844764455105cbe19fbb9d2 160002
...
000000000000002f88943806d0025389e540a356077f5f4667a725bfc0a663c2 185006
00000000000009f70f52e54bb6939365c8d33324fa1aa80e7c1cae17f2324a1f 185007
000000000000068b678282b2ec7d5e3f17add5ce1cc3dcf71d6f48ffbb9bc896 185008

... and whatever was in the first list, but not in the second, I assumed orphaned.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.

If all the mined blocks are there - then you must be right like hell.
http://pastebin.com/mb14R9nR

Code:
0% of orphaned blocks in January
1.0% in February
1.4% in March
0% in April
2.3% in May (though first one on the 13th)
12.7% in June

How did you get the orphans from that link? I couldn't see anything in the directory indicating whther or not the block orphaned. Well done though!
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111


Unless the tx fee is so high which could compensate the orphans, miner will start to reject tx like what Eligius doing. Eligius is simply putting the burden on other miners and increase their orphan rate.

Although I agree SD is abusing the network, a successful BTC network should be able to handle 1000x of current volume. If SD is a stress test, the network is failed. It means the network cannot grow further.

Without changing the current infrastructure, there are 3 options: 1. Miners will allow only a limited number of tx in a block, but this may leave some tx never confirmed and BTC is dead; 2. Increase the tx fee by 10x or even 100x; 3. A revised tx fee formula to punish people using coins with <3 confirmation.

All these solutions, however, would be short-term. If more people use BTC (which most of us want to see), the same problem will emerge again. If this could not be solved, this will be a major bottleneck of the whole system.

Actually, the TX fee used to be much higher (0.01 per KB vs 0.0005).  It was reduced to 1/200th it's original size after last summer's bubble.  At this point, txfees are almost meaningless because of that decision.  To process credit cards, you're looking at percentage fees, in addition to $0.05 to $0.30 per transaction, depending on volume and your system's ability to run the transactions in batches and the volume of transactions you process daily.  Right now, the txfees are pointless.  They don't even amount to a penny per TX in most cases.  That's why I actually agree with what Luke has done.

It is not SD's fault, they are following the rules that were changed because the developers were being pressured by the community last summer when TX fees were "becoming too big" because the price was $20-30 for a few weeks.  However, even at the peak value and 0.01 per KB, they were almost always cheaper than what would be charged by any credit card/payment processor.

If the fees were still 0.01, this wouldn't be a problem.  The fees would be adding enough to each block to make up for the higher risk of orphans.  Of course, it would also probably kill SatoshiDice because the fees would be a much larger portion of the bets.  Not that Bitcoin should be kept in this state for SatoshiDice.  I don't ever recall Bitcoin being marketed as a micropayment system.

And even if fees were bumped back up to 0.01, this doesn't mean everybody is suddenly paying high fees.  The network is designed to give priority to large transfers of highly confirmed coins.  The only people that would feel the change are those sending coins just after receiving them, or sending extremely small amounts of coins [or paying with a "bag of pennies" in change].

It's only 1/20th, not 1/200th


Transparency of the BTC tx fee system is actually quite low. Although the client will provide a "standard" rate, you will never know if it will be accepted or not. I think the major pools should publish their fee schedule/rules. Fee should be decided by the market, not the devs.

BTC may not be marketed as a micropayment system, but it has a good potential to be one. Tx fee of 0.01BTC may work a this moment. Pushing the tx fee to 0.3USD (0.01*30USD at the peak) will just kill any sub-dollar tx, or force them out of the blockchain (what SD suggested to do). (OK, may be I should start a BTC micropayment service)

Is it possible to improve the protocol, so we could tolerate SD-type tx while keeping the fee low?
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