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Topic: [OLD] Eligius: ASIC, no registration, no fee CPPSRB BTC + 105% PPS NMC, 877 # - page 158. (Read 458370 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
DiabloMiner author
But not to the extent that is being claimed. The way merged mining works is when I give 400 mhash to the pool, that 400 mhash goes to Bitcoin AND namecoin AND whatever else without diminishing the original 400 that went to Bitcoin. He can merge mine 9000 other alt chains, and I still get my 400 mhash worth of Bitcoin shares.

But are you getting your 400mhash worth of altcoins? No, he is keeping them. Lame.

That implies said altcoins actually have value, of course. He could setup signed message shit for the rest of the alt chains just like he did for nmc, but the other chains simply have no value.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
But not to the extent that is being claimed. The way merged mining works is when I give 400 mhash to the pool, that 400 mhash goes to Bitcoin AND namecoin AND whatever else without diminishing the original 400 that went to Bitcoin. He can merge mine 9000 other alt chains, and I still get my 400 mhash worth of Bitcoin shares.

But are you getting your 400mhash worth of altcoins? No, he is keeping them. Lame.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
DiabloMiner author
...he genuinely does seem to believe that whatever other things he does with his pool are irrelevant to miners so long as they get their Bitcoins.

I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.

Technically there doesn't have to be. Every additional merged mined pool does not decrease the hash power used on Bitcoin. Luke merely should add the ability for users to acquire the output of the merged mining and it legitimizes it.

Complete disagreement with you here.

Luke should made it clear to his users what he's using _their_ computing power for,
which has absolutely not been the case, and his double-using his pool's computing
power via merged mining is the only explanation possible (unless you believe that
the redneck lowlife actually has a couple of TH/s of computing power hidden in a
shed in his backyard).

If I rent my car to someone, I'd like to know if he used it to attack a bank, independent
of the fact that he's paying the rental fee: I'd be rather unlikely to rent the car a second
time.

He is abusing his users and betraying their trust, pure and simple.



But not to the extent that is being claimed. The way merged mining works is when I give 400 mhash to the pool, that 400 mhash goes to Bitcoin AND namecoin AND whatever else without diminishing the original 400 that went to Bitcoin. He can merge mine 9000 other alt chains, and I still get my 400 mhash worth of Bitcoin shares.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis

Excellent example..

If you loan your car to someone, you can't ask them how they used it after they used it and then get upset to find out they used it for something you don't approve of.  If you loan out your car and don't want it used for something, you need to stipulate BEFORE hand.

ahh, good ol morality questions..

See, the flaw in that logic is that when loaning to someone you 'trust' you would not feel the need to ever have to ask such questions...

Trust but VERIFY.  That is why contracts exist.  Mining is an economic activity.  If miners feel that there should be limits on how their hashes (not hashing power) is used then it should be contracted.  Barring a contract you should have no expectation of what the hashes are used for.   

The only thing the pool has "contracted" (in an informal sense) if how much the rewards are, how much fees are, and how the rewards are split.
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.

Excellent example..

If you loan your car to someone, you can't ask them how they used it after they used it and then get upset to find out they used it for something you don't approve of.  If you loan out your car and don't want it used for something, you need to stipulate BEFORE hand.

ahh, good ol morality questions..

See, the flaw in that logic is that when loaning to someone you 'trust' you would not feel the need to ever have to ask such questions...

That isn't a flaw.  Just because you trust someone, doesn't mean you are going to agree on everything 100%.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500

Excellent example..

If you loan your car to someone, you can't ask them how they used it after they used it and then get upset to find out they used it for something you don't approve of.  If you loan out your car and don't want it used for something, you need to stipulate BEFORE hand.

ahh, good ol morality questions..

See, the flaw in that logic is that when loaning to someone you 'trust' you would not feel the need to ever have to ask such questions...
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
...he genuinely does seem to believe that whatever other things he does with his pool are irrelevant to miners so long as they get their Bitcoins.

I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.

Technically there doesn't have to be. Every additional merged mined pool does not decrease the hash power used on Bitcoin. Luke merely should add the ability for users to acquire the output of the merged mining and it legitimizes it.

Complete disagreement with you here.

Luke should made it clear to his users what he's using _their_ computing power for,
which has absolutely not been the case, and his double-using his pool's computing
power via merged mining is the only explanation possible (unless you believe that
the redneck lowlife actually has a couple of TH/s of computing power hidden in a
shed in his backyard).

If I rent my car to someone, I'd like to know if he used it to attack a bank, independent
of the fact that he's paying the rental fee: I'd be rather unlikely to rent the car a second
time.

He is abusing his users and betraying their trust, pure and simple.



Excellent example..

If you loan your car to someone, you can't ask them how they used it after they used it and then get upset to find out they used it for something you don't approve of.  If you loan out your car and don't want it used for something, you need to stipulate BEFORE hand.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
DiabloMiner author
...he genuinely does seem to believe that whatever other things he does with his pool are irrelevant to miners so long as they get their Bitcoins.

I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.

Technically there doesn't have to be. Every additional merged mined pool does not decrease the hash power used on Bitcoin. Luke merely should add the ability for users to acquire the output of the merged mining and it legitimizes it.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004

As to litigation. One must prove harm. Since Luke currently controls all CLC coins in accordance with the CLC spec, I don't see how he broke any laws. If anyone should be litigated against, it is the creator of CLC for making exaggerated claims as to the security and viability of the CLC blockchain.


Right now, as nobody has terms of service or any licensing agreements on this stuff I do not see what the claim would be.  On the other hand if CLC started a new chain, and put a terms of service on their software which precluded things like mining blank blocks, attempting to control the network and modifying the software do make other peoples use of it fail, Luke would be probably be breaking US computer crime laws if he did a similar act.  Now I doubt any DA would act on something like this as it is uncharted territory, but it could happen. 
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh

 How many real $$ has Luke mined in I0coin, ixCoin, and CLC, using Eligius pool power, that has not been shared back to
the Eligius Pool members ?

Is this in any way relevant? Those coins are nearly worthless and there is a much bigger matter at hand.
Those coins happen to be worth even less than previously, because of this use of pool resources to attack those chains and reduce the market for their coins to shambles. So yes, it is somewhat relevant. The miners should have received their share of I0coin, ixCoin, and CLC instead of him using them to attack the markets for them and also gain monetarily by that. The sticking point is that there is no way to sign up to receive those altchains, even if you wanted to.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
...I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement...

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.

By HIM, I meant Luke.   I'll try to be very precise here:

1. Eligius is a merged-mining-enabled Bitcoin-Namecoin mining pool.
2. A pool is an service which helps miners to do their job (mine Bitcoins and Namecoins) by splitting the task of mining into smaller work units. By definition this is what a pool does and is the only thing a pool does.
3. Luke agrees to provide his pool's services to the miners.
4. The miners agree to process the work units received from Eligius, thereby effectively authorizing Luke to use their computer systems' resources strictly for the purpose of mining Bitcoins and Namecoins.
5. However, Luke has allegedly been using his users' hashing power for his own, private purposes.
6. Thus, even if at no cost to the miners, Luke is violating the agreement with his miners by misusing the pool (using it outside of the agreed-upon scope).
7. His pool's use of the miners' resources is therefore unauthorized.
8. Unauthorized use of a computer system is considered a crime.

By continuing the alleged attacks, Luke puts himself in a very dangerous position should any Eligius miner choose to litigate.
That's why I advise Luke to cease any alleged attacks using Eligius' resources.

1. It can also be CLC merged mining pool as can every other BTC pool in existence. This is the mathematical definition of CLC, any BTC miner can also produce CLC with no additional work. Whether or not a pool chooses to take advantage of this is up to the operator. Whether or not the pool operator chooses to pass on the rewards is up to the operator.

2. Why is it the only thing? Is there a contract that states it will not have any alternative sources of revenue (like advertising)? Providing work and rewards is the minimum a pool must do, there is no upper bound (explicit or implicit) as to a pools functionality. That is like saying the Google is search, and only search, and they made Gmail and now I am FURIOUS because my AOL mail account is less valuable!

3. The miners agree to use Luke's service, in return for some portion of the rewards. The size and shape of that portion is entirely up to the pool operator. Too little rewards, fewer miners. Too great of a reward, pool costs too much to maintain.

4. Luke does not use their systems resources at all. They ask for work, the pool provides the work, they complete the work, they return the completed work, the pool checks the work and gives them their reward. The only thing the pool does is provide work, check the completed work, and provide the reward. The pool does no calculations and runs no code on the users machine.

5. Luke did not "use" their hashing power. He used the results of their hashing power. The result is information. The hashing power is the conversion of electricity into information. No hashing power was used above and beyond that required to hash for BTC.

6. There was no agreed upon scope as you state it. There was no EULA and no official statement as to what services would be provided.

7. Again, he did not use the pools resources. He used the result of the pools resources. The result is information. The pools resources are the conversion of electricity into information.

8. He executed no code on any of his users computers. All information from the users of the pool was given to the pool in exchange for fixed rewards of BTC & NMC. All BTC & NMC rewards were paid. Further use of that information was not covered by any agreement between the users and the pool owner. Furthermore, since Luke created the blocks in question, he owns the copyright on them. The users are paid for the shares they submit. Nothing more than that.

As to litigation. One must prove harm. Since Luke currently controls all CLC coins in accordance with the CLC spec, I don't see how he broke any laws. If anyone should be litigated against, it is the creator of CLC for making exaggerated claims as to the security and viability of the CLC blockchain.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100

 How many real $$ has Luke mined in I0coin, ixCoin, and CLC, using Eligius pool power, that has not been shared back to
the Eligius Pool members ?

Is this in any way relevant? Those coins are nearly worthless and there is a much bigger matter at hand.

By running a pool he governs his miner's resources (hash power). Allegedly, he also uses these resources for purposes other than mining Bitcoins which he wasn't entitled to do.

An analogy is you desperately need one:
You have access to your employer's computer in your work. You are allowed to use the machine's resources as far as this usage is work-related.
If you are caught playing Quake on that machine not only can you get fired but also be sued for unauthorized use of your employer's resources.

I'm going out of my way here to warn Luke that this is not necessarily child's play. He is a very good coder and I wouldn't like him to get in serious trouble.

I've said all I have to say, this is the last time I'm joining this particular discussion.
full member
Activity: 141
Merit: 100
ZOHEM | DECENTRALISED USER BEHAVIOUR DATA PROTOCOL

 How many real $$ has Luke mined in I0coin, ixCoin, and CLC, using Eligius pool power, that has not been shared back to
the Eligius Pool members ?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Testing welcome: https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/pull/69

This one isn't simple, and probably doesn't bring much hashrate improvement. It does, however, prepare the way for mining with ButterFly Labs's BitForce Single FPGA miner. Wink
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
...I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement...

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.

By HIM, I meant Luke.   I'll try to be very precise here:

EDIT:: I edited a part of this post out as I felt it was out of place. Not wrong or incorrect, just in the wrong place here as this is a technical forum.
EDIT:: Legal discussion does not belong here and is certainly not had with individuals trying to raise a row.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
The relation between Eligius miners and CLC, is the same relationship as between Eligius miners and Joe Drugdealer's money laundering (that he is abusing Bitcoin to accomplish).
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
OK, so since Luke Jr doesn't seem to think he can explain this usefully, a brief summary merged mining for miners:

As far as miners are concerned, it looks to your mining software as though you're just mining Bitcoins normally with all your mining power. Your mining software gets normal Bitcoin-mining work and submits normal shares at the same rate as it would if you weren't merged mining, if the pool is well-written it'll credit your shares towards Bitcoins at the same rate as if it wasn't merged mining, and the pool will have the same chance of finding blocks too. From a purely Bitcoin-mining perspective it doesn't have any effect whatsoever.

However, because of a clever trick with the work you're sent that you have no way to detect, the shares you submit can also be used as shares towards every other merged-mining-supporting altchain that the pool chooses to mine and can be used to generate blocks for that chain. Again, they don't stop being valid as Bitcoin shares or blocks because they're used them in this way - in theory all the chains gets the benefit of all the shares you submit, though in practice this is only entirely true for Bitcoin. This is actually how I can prove that Eligius is merged mining CLC. A large proportion of the Bitcoin blocks found by Eligius were created from the same share as a CLC block.

In summary, whilst this doesn't affect your income from Bitcoin or Namecoin mining in any way it does mean that you're helping to shut down CLC by mining at Eligius. How important this is, is something for you to judge.

Edit: as k9quant in IRC points out, there's one small inaccuracy. It's more accurate to say that you have no easy way to detect that you're merged mining and no reliable way to tell which chains you're helping to mine on. If you personally find a Bitcoin block you can tell from the block that merged mining was used but not which chains, and in theory you could also detect that you'd mined a block on a particular altchain if you knew to look out for it.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
...he genuinely does seem to believe that whatever other things he does with his pool are irrelevant to miners so long as they get their Bitcoins.

I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.

Incorrect. There was and still is no agreement to provide Coiledcoins. There is no agreement promising not to use the completed POWs for other calculations besides those promised to the users.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
I can't quite agree with him, that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.
Errm, good luck with that. Apparently he's already made his position on this quite clear:
There's an ongoing discussion in #bitcoin-otc about this right now.

Direct quote:

Code:
luke-jr also, it was unethical to take your users' hashing power and use it for other purposes
<+luke-jr> btc_novice: I didn't.
luke-jr did you use your hashing power, or eligius combined hashing power?
<+luke-jr> btc_novice: all hashing involving CLC was done by me
Again, both technically true and intentionally misleading. Because of the way merged mining works hashing involving CLC was indeed done by him - even if they were helping to mine CLC the miners just hashed normal Bitcoin blocks which unbeknownst to them were constructed to be used as proof-of-work for CLC blocks. Even if their hash power was being utilized to help shut down CLC - and it looks like it was - they weren't directly hashing anything CLC-related.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
...he genuinely does seem to believe that whatever other things he does with his pool are irrelevant to miners so long as they get their Bitcoins.

I can't quite agree with him (EDIT:: Luke), that's a blatant breach of agreement.
Miners mine at Eligius with the assumption that their hashing power is being exclusively used for Bitcoin (and since merged mining was introduced, Namecoin) mining.
Any other usage of the hashing power is simply unauthorized.

Please think the situation over once more Luke.
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