Topic: Poker talk - Specifically Hold'em - Hands and or strategy - page 6. (Read 4766 times)

Then I don't understand this part :


Why were you afraid of a Flush of Hearts?



I wouldn't call it very weak knowledge if you don't know some trashy games. (There are many of them, check out this link https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/games/).

I tried to play almost all of them at some point, and in my opinion none of them is half as entertaining as Classic Full Deck Texas Hold'em.


Yeah, sure.

https://www.partypoker.com/en/how-to-play/short-deck-rankings

Only I think, if you are still in the phase of learning(aren't all of us, btw? ), you should better concentrate on only one game, which you like the most.

Hey didn't want to leave you hanging. Wasn't trying to tell you off. Sorry if it came across that way. It was a joke about the hand after it played out.

What I meant was that in general people usually have a larger range of hands that they "raise" preflop rather than limp in. This is a raise first in ( RFI) if it folds around to you.  People still have limping ranges but it's usually a smaller amount of hands. Generally they are weaker hands or maybe AA as it's making a comeback at some stakes to try and generate raises and more action.

The monster being that AK suited or not is a very strong hand or a "monster" hand to limp. Obviously not as good as AA KK QQ, but against QQ and smaller it still has good odds. So good in fact that it is often a hand people are willing to go all-in with a lot of the time pre-flop. It's one of those hands that you would like to start building the potoff with a raise and a caller or 2.

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Edit: added reply from PC

I had to look it up and that does fall into a lot of the basic definitions I had seen out there. My view was more shaped from what I had seen. I could just be using the term loosely.


Much like the example I showed from yesterday the gut feeling that I had in that spot comes from past showdowns. It's not always but generally with that level of open aggressive betting someone is trying to push me off. Sometimes they are drawing and hit/miss, if they barrel 2X and then check river I'm usually checking behind as I feel I might be getting trapped there whether a flush or straight draw come in that I wasn't chasing. It's only a spot I am willing to follow if it's not going to overly jeopardize my position.
This is the sort of betting I was suggesting for your pocket pairs that you were 3-betting and having to fold out to a board with 1 or 2 overcards. I can now also see why that advice/play seemed counter intuitive, as a smaller betsizing kind of incentivises peeling a draw or overcards.
"An ace can never lose you just have to believe in it" Anonymous tournament player 3rd bullet    Just another spot I have to think on more,less is probably better.

I knew you played tighter and more aggressive I just don't think I fully grasped it. This more highlights a fundamental difference in our play, which I don't see a problem with. I run into much more variance, and am able to lets say lightly patch leaks listening to your position and thoughts on spots. You seem to be a more consistent player by winding up in less spots but being able to capitalize on them. If nothing else I show you that you'll always be able to hook someone  

This is a spot I'm going to keep an eye on and track as I'm sure it will stick out next time I feel I'm in it. I feel like it's not always a bad play against someone I have no reads/history with, I feel like overall it's been more of a flip and that's why I'm only inclined to go for it with a decent SPR or no other outside considerations. Especially in low/micro tourneys where people barrel off air at times or just make unusual moves. Then again mabe this is the sort of spot I need to just leave alone in the grand scheme of things.

okay, thanks for clarifying. i always thought a donk bet implied a small bet.


you don't often give it credit---is that based on actual showdowns? gut feeling? i guess i just don't understand where these assumptions come from, or why a 70% pot bet would be perceived as weaker than a check.

the way i saw it, AQ beats most of your range there, but it was still only top pair with 2 hearts on the flop, straight draws on the turn. i don't make a huge distinction about who the preflop raiser is here---too many people are checking behind. slow playing top pair on a wet board seems like an awesome way to flush equity down the toilet. tbh i'm betting AAA there too. i don't give people free cards when there are strong draws on the board.


can't fold top pair, rag kicker---noted.


with 14bbs there aren't many options. i can either 3bet (then stack off if you raise or jam any flop if you call).....or i can see a flop with 12bbs behind. my flatting range is very strong here.

if i wanted to steal i would have just jammed preflop. that's why i find this all so confusing.


that's a very odd spot for that move.

still, i generally lose money when i call down large bets with rag kickers and second pairs. that's the long and short of it.

Last night I got told off for "limping" a monster hand

But they couldn't explain during the game and said will explain tomorrow.

I had   A K   off suit.


Thanks, I have no idea what it means.

First I just want to preface that my use of the term "donk lead" is just that. I'm not actually calling anyone a donk.
This is the best range I could think of while trying to figure out what I was up against. 77+, 78s, 78+ hearts, There are the ATo+, and the Axs combos. Maybe you had hit a set but again I couldn't be sure you were playing 66 or 22, might have jammed the flop with those.

I made some assumptions that were clearly wrong. I thought from SB you might 3-bet stronger holdings some of which might be a 3-bet fold - in lieu of that jamming with 14 BB you might not have a 3-bet range of any kind. I assumed a weaker made hand or strong draw with the flop lead out. The turn jam had me confused, mostly because of the lead out.  
Those factors had me heavily leaning away from you having a strong holding. I have been trying to expand beyond purely GTO which my studying had me heavily focused on. So I talked myself into a feeling that if you had a strong A and wanted to get all the money you might play this slower both on the flop and turn. With that I was already knocking off some of the higher AX combos - coupled with no 3-bet or jam on the river. (This did also take away some of the higher suited combos at the same time). Not that you couldn't have them but the gameplay so far gave me reason to discount them

It clearly does given the 2 spots I found myself in. Generally if heads-up post flop - if I am in position and was the preflop aggressor I do think of any leadout by the OOP player to be a "donk lead". I see this as a couple things , stealing my chance to bluff, as a probe possibly to see if I raise, an attempt to steal the pot on a board I may have missed, or they hit and are worried of getting pushed off. I don't often give it a lot of credit, especially if I have top pair. I just naturally assume they would rather go with a check call/check raise scenario, but if I miss I often have to let it go whether I believe them or not.
I feel I also would have played this the same with AK in my hand. I would call down and then go for a re-raise on the turn if they put out another bet

To a leadout on the flop most of the time yes if I have hit top pair or a decent piece of the flop. Jamming or an overbet would have made it weirder for me in this spot, and might get a fold out of me here. The turn call like I said I mostly didn't believe the story. I expect more fiction and subterfuge in poker, and I should remember sometimes it will be exactly what it looks like.

In this spot I truly didn't expect this play. It was very face up representing a strong A, and it's not what I expect a strong A to do to get the most value. This call while bad is more just me thinking you were trying to bluff me off my hand, thinking I missed or was just drawing. It does give me more insight into how you play a certain spot, and go after your equity. It's just not something I would have thought of. We actually haven't battled it out post flop in many spots and I read it all wrong.

I don't know how often I'm good there with top pair weak kicker but it's something I'll have to keep in mind. I played 2 tourneys tonight and there was a spot with a similar feel I didn't have top pair. I didn't get it saved but I got to see it runout because there was a blinded/anted out player. We are about 15 people off the money 64 left I think.

I had around 28BB [HJ] Kd8d, they had 13BB [SB]    I make it 2.22BB they call
Flop is AcKh9c
SB bets 3.7BB into a ~6.5BB pot I fold out. They show 33 in showdown against the blinded out shortstack

Here I think it was easier to fold out because I didn't block some any pair holdings. I would have rather not seen the runout.


 

Yes, I know I had a full house but this ranking for Texas hold 'em seems different from others. I never played any other type of Poker so I really have very weak knowledge. Can you share the rank of that Short Deck hold'em?

hmmm, but there was never any donk bet. on the flop, it was a 1000 chip bet into a 1425 chip pot. on the turn, it was a 2466 chip shove into a 3425 chip pot.

i can understand the preflop range you put me on, although tbh with only 14bbs preflop my range is definitely stronger than that. i can sort of understand the flop call too, to see if i checked the turn. but calling the shove on the turn in position? i don't get it.

i'm just curious what actual range you put me on at that point where a call would seem profitable.


what's your definition of a "donk lead"? any time someone ever calls you OOP and bets postflop, regardless of bet sizing? if you as a rule never respect the bettor there it sounds kinda leaky.


here is another way to put it. once you saw the A on the flop, you had already decided you weren't going to fold no matter what?


i was betting for value. i didn't want to give you the opportunity to check behind the flop, especially with the heart draw on the board. the flop call screamed weak ace to me so i shoved for value. i'm not much for slow playing TP2K.

You've been playing poker only since recently, so it's understandable that you may miss something.

Take a closer look



You didn't have Three of a Kind, you had a Full House, namely, tens full of queens.

Now, there is a game, which I personally don't like much, called Short Deck Holdem(aka Six-plus hold'em), where the 2 through 5 cards are removed from the deck. In this game a Flush beats a Full House because the probability of hitting a Flush with the reduced deck is lower than that of hitting a Full House.

Hope that helps.

Yeah I wanted to type out more in chat in the moment to give a clearer picture of my thought process which wasn't great. Going into it you legitimately could have had anything, from 22+(not sure your threshold for set mining),  ATo+, AXs 56s+, 9Toff+ and a massive amount of broadway combos suited and unsuited. It was a small blind flat against a 2BB raise I think, pre-flop this range is huge. I can't remember if this is before or after I went from 2.5x to 2x.

Taking the lead OOP to me said you had something but were worried of being pushed off. I thought I was making a more exploitative play here, and I went more with my reasoning than with reason. If that makes sense. The jam on the turn then made me wonder, and I considered folding out but it nagged me that this line didn't make sense if you were strong. Why make bets to scare me away if he has it? Does he put me on just peeling for the flush draw,? Is he trying to push me off with his flush draw?? Is this grabbing max value and I misunderstood the leadout? maybe I'm definitely capable of calling light.

I also kept having our previous conversations going through my mind, that you could have had a pocketpair that now had an overcard on the board. Of course all of this was only momentary flashes of though that were all competing. If I had a shorter stack I would have had to fold out but as I said with my SPR and what I figured my odds of needing around 30% that I was okay with the gamble. I would have thought about it a lot less with other players.

Do I think this was an overall good play on my part. No. Not necessarily for the call down against most people; but the donk lead really f's me up. I called down 3 streets later on in almost the exact same situation. Only I had second pair, and they had it. I guess when I see a donk lead that is out of character I almost never assume it is a tier1 hand, on that street. Something I have to change about my game for sure.

Long story short I didn't give you enough credit for being a TAG player in this instance.
The comments about having you maybe outkicked was more in regards to if you had an AX, which there are fewer combos available because I hold an A, but it wasn't the only holding you might have had. It was more a possibility if you did hold an A, because again the flat call. Maybe you did have A4s A3s, and are now open ended and top pair. These are the sorts of hands I expect an OOP lead most of time. The top pair shit kicker was just in reference to your leadout on the flop - At that point I can't fold my hand otherwise how do I ever play that hand again preflop.

I can't say for sure how I would have played it but I feel had you jammed the SB pre-flop I would have folded out. Hell a 3-bet might have done it, but given your stacksize at the time It almost makes it a mandatory shove if you are going to be more aggressive. Check raising the flop if I were to bet would have put more alarm bells in my head than questions, same for the turn if I had checked back, which was probably unlikely. In a more standard line I would have been more likely to fold. It's a bad habit of mine and goes against a lot of advice and tips I've seen where if you are confused or unsure best bet is to fold.

Edit: Ignore the above. I'm being to situational. You played it right, I just got lucky. Just because of a bad suckout here doesn't mean you shouldn't play this spot identical next time. I think I was more focusing on an explanation for why your bets aren't getting respect. I can't speak for others how they would have played this spot.
Can I ask though what were you wanting to achieve with your betsizing and leadouts? I feel you got the desired result I just sat on a horseshoe yesterday. Did you want the max value doubleup or where you looking for a fold from me on the turn?

alright @Steamtyme, i gotta ask. what actual range did you put me on here? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54487465

you mentioned in the chat you thought you had me out-kicked, and you said in the other thread "with top pair shit kicker I wasn't folding out". so i'm OOP double barreling/shoving and you thought my range was limited to A3/A4 and bluffs?

nobody is respecting my bets at all lately. i wonder why. normally this would be great because i'm mostly TAG but i've been facing quite an awful run of variance the last few weeks. lots of 70-30 to 80-20 spots lost lately. this one takes the cake as far as recent beats go.

I can not reme3meer correctly but looking at the image I guess yes this was a 2/4 cash table.

Meaning not to risk too much of my chips.

Very true. I did not looked at that way. This tip will surly help me in the future. Thanks for that.

Anyway, my mistake was to match that call from the monster [I still did not know that he was a monster though] and gone ALL IN.



And then I was watching them to call each others until the cards were shown.



Lost all that was in my hand on that table LOL

2/4 cash games on SwC.


what do you mean by "play safe"? getting involved in a multi-way pot is the easiest way to lose with a premium pocket pair. that's why i like to bet strong and isolate preflop.

let's think about the amount of risk taken preflop vs on the turn. you didn't wanna risk more than 8 chips preflop on AA, but you felt that betting 71 chips after that dangerous turn card wasn't risky? remember, they both called your flop bet so both likely connected to the board in some way (draws, top pair, second pair).

Still long way to go for me LOL




What do you mean by 2/4 stakes?


Good thought on going bigger in pre-flop but I wanted to play safe coz I have lost so many AAs in the past that when I get an AA, I do not really feel very comfortable.

Let me understand what you mean by 2/4 stakes then I will be posting the result.

the question is flush vs full house. in full deck poker, if he were semi-bluffing the flush draw on the turn, he's still drawing dead and had no chance to win since you already had a boat.

short deck poker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-plus_hold_'em

in short deck, flushes outrank full houses since they are harder to make.


this is 2/4 stakes, right?

i like a bigger preflop raise, especially in 6max where everyone is calling loose. isolate one player and your preflop equity is huge.

the flop bet is fine but you gotta know this is a dangerous board. in a 3-way pot with possible flush and straight draws and a paired board on the turn your equity isn't great. i'm checking the turn (definitely not pot betting) and likely folding to a bet + raise from the other villains. the SB is repping a monster hand.

It could be a great upset if I would lose this hand, it's not that it was impossible to lose.

What is short Deck Poker and isn't Flush is always higher than a Three of a Kind?
I mean the ranking from low to hight is: Hight Card < One Pair < Two Pairs < Three of a Kind < Straight < Flush ?



Good! See you on any table there.

And now time for a new hand, new analysis.



Hand history:
I doubled the BB in pre-flop, both players matched it
I chipped 15 in the flop, both matched the bet
In the turn with pot amount (71.18) and you are seeing their moves in the image above.

How are you going to handle the hand now and why?

Aah! Now I see where it ended. I was expecting this to be some Super High Roller Bowl level clash but it turns out to be one amateur getting extra-adrenaline flow after seeing Jack pockets on SwC. If I am in that guy's place, I wouldn't raised pot on flop, makes no sense to me. Even if he's trying to bluff, EV value of that hand wasn't enough to raise that much stake. Maybe a small bet or check was enough to test you out. Turn was last nail on the coffin, if I saw you raising enough of turn, I would have straight away folded that hand.

O man! I almost made up my mind that I won't play poker any more but you have ignited the heat within me once again, lol.  I think I should go on and deposit some funds on SwC and meet you homies on table after 2 hours. 

Wait, it wasn't a Short Deck Poker, so, you would still win if he had a flush. You know this, right?

As of your going all-in, I absolutely support your move. If I were in your place, I wouldn't think of those losing possibilities either. I'd be thinking something like this: "I'm definitely winning this time. Now, how can I suck as much chips as possible out of the Villain?"

ah ok, i thought you were hinting at a bad beat.

i see this kind of play a lot---limping (or checking from the big blind) with a premium pocket pair then being unable to fold postflop. nicely taken down.


it depends on the table IMO. at a very aggressive table, limping is terrible. at a passive table, you can see cheap flops and capitalize on them.

A few words about my strategy: never limping, except cases where i would like to see flop and i'm SB or BB on table. Limping is in fact one of the worst things, if you're not a pro player but rather noob (like me).

Do not rise on tables where too much aggressive players. One of them will definitely re-raise and i will be on a hard choice: call or lose money.

Trying to not call "all in" in pre flop, even with good hands (like JJ or KK) because opponent can be lucky as hell, and will beat me with his set or something bigger.

Right let's end this drama now 😀



Honestly speaking, on the table I did not have any of these in mind:
2222
AAA
KKK (it was a K in the river by the way)
QQQ
JJJ
Or even a flash on hearts

In the flop I had 2 pairs and I doubled and in the turn when he chipped 300 I was happy to go ALL-IN without thinking much about those possibilities. I mean who would. He matched it and then card was shown and the river card was dealt.

I never had a 2nd thought of losing this hand from the flop round.