Topic: Poker talk - Specifically Hold'em - Hands and or strategy - page 9. (Read 4766 times)

Oh damn drawing dead from the flop.  Blockers to both of their monsters that sucks. Sorry i read this the other day and forgot to come back for a reply. I get why it was hard to get away from it but you were down to maybe 24% of hitting a pair... not knowing it wouldn't help. I dont imagine you play this spot often, but in the future if it doesn't go all-in pre it has to be a fold in the flop. I don't think there are enough people bluffing that spot to justify it.

I will say for my own sanity lately i'm happy to see i'm analyzing and picking these spots apart better in a reciew... now to try and apply it to my own jammy tendencies. I will be bringing some spots back this week ... from the microstakes, last month pretty much wiped out all my profit from the last 3 months.

The gameplan is microstakes buy-in tournaments and satellites for low, medium buy-ins until i win my roll back. I've spent a few hours at work this week reviewing my strategy and training materials and then reading up on opposing theories to try and get out of my seemingly robotic play. I also have to start remembering the level and caliber of players in my pool, and stop playing as if they are thinking the same way I am.

Hopefully this helps me use the knowledge and strategies i've learned but gets me back to some of the core gameplay that i was using before i studied. Ideally i will be tightening up preflop, playing value more aggresively, and overall a slightly more faceup and less blanket hidden strategy.

i had never seen either player before and tbh didn't have 100% attention on the table. villain 1 i put on some generic range like 99+, AQ+, maybe some suited connectors like QJs+, possibly a total donk shove. the flat from villain 2 felt weak and he seemed to be giving me proper odds, so i called.

922 rainbow flop. villain 2 donk bets, i jammed (regretting it even before i did it), he calls and shows KK. villain 1 shows AA. lol.......

i definitely felt committed postflop, probably should have walked away.

It's tough to figure out if over time it's +ev with the total of pots stolen and the times you come out on top, against just having to fold out against overpairs and bluffs. I'm curious what you do in a similar spot with a 3-bet that misses the flop, I'm not sure if your 3-betting KQs and there is an A high rainbow flop, or better yet if you hit a set. Looking at your post flop strategy for hitting; and incorporating it into your overall strategy might help keep bluffs out of the pot. It does put more chips out there to play some of these spots as if you got there but it should generate folds unless they have you beat. Then it also disguises those hands that hit so you get calls when you want them.

I also like going for Betting the flop, and checking turn (regardless if I improve) when I am OOP and there is an overcard. I do mix in a Bet/Bet as well but it's usually table/player dependent
So I was in a similar spot today, and after playing it out to me after I see where I misread the situation and again couldn't walk away from QQ pre. I probably still shouldn't have but you never know.

To me The Villain-2 choice to call and not try and isolate is a lure, he's giving good odds to come along or the illusion you can put him off the hand by jamming. Sometimes inexperienced players also do this, so it's tough to say which they are without playing a while with them. Personally in this spot I am probably going to want to jam pre... but I'm trying to get away from that especially if you can see a flop in position. I would call and evaluate afterwards, as you said you would still have 26BB behind and could choose to check jam or bet jam, or worst case walk away and wait for a better spot. Not just because of the UTG possibly bating, and not likely to fold for the rest of your stack, but the BB jamming into both of you suggests a pocket pair maybe the same hand as yourself.

T

in early position i'm usually raising first in and flatting a 3-bet, and calling from the blinds. in late position, i definitely prefer 3-betting to get marginal callers out of the pot. (or just steal it)


absolutely, that's a perfect example of why i like to 3-bet, especially a monster like QQ---it weighs the odds of those marginal calls in my favor.

here's a hand from earlier today. 9max tournament, but only 6 seated at the table. 50/100 blinds.

CO: Hero (5,574 in chips)
SB: Villain 1 (2,990 in chips)
UTG: Villain 2 (9,590 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Kh Ah]

Villain 2  raises 200 to 200
Hero raises 800 to 800
Villain 1 raises 2,880 to 2,980 and is all-in
Villain 2 calls 2,780
Hero?

a call would leave me 26 big blinds left with ~9k chips in the pot. AKs 6-handed is a tough fold, but what do you make of the preflop action?

I can't remember where I was watching someone talk abou thow they had begun throwing it in when they were in a tough spot they weren't sure of. They said live they found it to often confuse their opponent. I use it every now and then OOP, when there is 1 broadway on the flop. It's a gamble as to them hitting that broadway if not pocket pairs but it looks like I'm trying to protect something week. I will also mix this in with very strong holdings that hit in the same instance if I didn't 3-bet preflop.
Personally I wouldn't be 3-betting TT/JJ especially if I'm going to be OOP like SB or BB. I'm probably the worst for advice on 3-betting as I don't think I do it enough, especially later tournaments. I generally stick to AQs+, KK+,AKo and then mix in some 55,66,77 and some low to mid suited connectors. This makes it a lot easier to decide to throw away cards post flop if they don't connect, or continue to barrel while balancing everything out nicely.

Now one bustout I had a few days ago, that I can't find on ACR. It didn't seem to show up was a similar spot. I was torn on whether or not to 3-bet this pre, but I elected to try and get more callers as I was only 23 BB deep. Me and UTG=1 have similar stacks and BB has more than double

UTG+1 leads 2BB, I call from Cutoff with QQ, and the BB calls.

Flop is 8,9,Q rainbow - Original raiser checks and I bet out 3BB into a pot of roughly 8BB, BB raises to 9BB, original raiser folds. Now there isn't a flush draw out there but I don't like the idea of seeing any more cards for a chance to get to the straight, so I elect to fast play this hand sitting with top set. Jam all in and he calls. Runout didn't help.

FFS he shows TJ off. Reasonable call from BB given the price, so that's why I feel I might have benefited from a 3-bet pre.

---

I was re-reading one of my posts from earlier after a nice finish. It helped as I've been really focusing on the negatives lately, keeping track of bad beats/loss streaks or counting cooler spots. When these happen earlier in a tourney it seems okay and I still manage to play a reasonable game afterwards. Definitely worse when it's a bubble scenario and puts me out as it leaves me to stew until the next game. It hasn't been anything crazy but it has been a worse month though especially considering the volume I put in. I guess I should take comfort in the fact that most if not all spots are expected plays and it I'm just losing flips.

We will see how it goes I have a few tourneys lined up tonight, and the wife cleared me to play tomorrow so I might take a stab at one of those long ass massive entry pool tournaments tomorrow. Been a while with all the series tournaments so it might be a nice change of pace. Then I'll be away from the tables for a week while I'm back at work.

donk betting, there's a thought. it's never been in my toolbox really, but i may try mixing it in.

indeed it's these OOP hands that are toughest---barrelling creates huge pots and checking invites bluffs. sometimes i wonder if i should stop 3-betting TT/JJ so much preflop (at least OOP)......but then i flat and end up in a 3 or 4-way pot, terrible in terms of equity.

Of course, just like OP stated above it would be great to know the hand from the beginning to be able to say something more because from the size of the pre-flop betting and positions we can assume how strong Khaled hand is. We are missing almost the most important info, which is the pre-flop play.

BitcoinGirl.Club has already three of a kind, flush draw with the highest card, a possibility for a full house, four of a kind if Q or A would hit the deck, which gives a lot of outs (at least 13) and put you in a very strong position, still there is a possibility for a better hand if Khaled is holding AK from the start, then he would have the nuts here.

As always I would try to take out as many chips as possible from Khaled, but all depends from his betting and how aggressive he would be. Here I will try to check and figure out how strong he is? If there is not much confidence in his betting, I would try to seek for more value on the river. Of course, I would call even all in with such hand, especially if there will be a flush.

Many times I see when two monster hands find themselves on the table and there are no easy choices. One will make a lot of cheaps from such hands, but also there will be quite a few very costly surprises like AK or KK could be in this particular hand. Still, with three of a kind and the flush draw, you are just committed to check here and on the river almost any bet.

This is why pre-flop play is so important and to observe how opponents value their hands, to be able to figure out their ranges properly. With such a hand as AK, players tend to bet pre-flop aggressively and high, many times re-raising on and even without a position.

You weren't necessarily wrong that I could have dropped a triple barrel bluff in that spot. These tournaments though had been in my head a bit as a lot of people were limping the nuts and not betting for value. So this was horrible for bluffs. Looking back on it now, I don't see me ever getting any extra chips bluffing that river. If you had bet that river I would have folded out.

Give it long enough you will hate all hands equally lol. The monster hands just hurt more and cause more damage to your stack when they go bad.  

IT's tough to say for sure as I can't tell how the action has gone so far. I'm going to guess something like them RFI preflop to something like 1200-1500. You call. Some larger size bet call or bet raise action on the flop.
Please fill us in on how this hand went.

Personally I'm going to check this turn. 2 reasons - 1 you are out of position here and betting here might just scare off your opponent. Secondly with a second A on the board they might be inclined to bet their Kx to push you off a heart or straight draw. You can easily call down or re-raise for value if they do go for it on the turn.
Secondly you aren't scared of any cards that come off except for a T or J that isn't hearts that could complete some straight draws. If you are beat by AK or KK or a suited heart connector like TJ, 9T something that flopped the nuts, you aren't getting away from it cheap in any case.

If it checks through look to bet the river.

Not a problem it's nice to be able to look at hands sometimes. It would be neat to see if there was away after tournaments to get the video and do a voiceover commentary.

---

I've had the idea for bustout spots for about a week, but I keep snap closing the browser and forgetting to go back and grab the hand. I need to put some effort in and gather all my hands in one spot - playing off 2 devices that don't have hold'em manager installed. That one isn't even top 10 this week.

I hate these spots really. It really only gets worse when you are OOP. In position as the caller I call a flop bet, I feel most aggressors carry on with 80-100% cbets on those kinds of boards. So a lot of the time you are still good. The turn is iffy and really comes down to pot-odds and SPR, if you can afford it and they continue with a turn bet.

It's not bullet proof, but Ideally you just check call to the river if the price is good enough. You can generally get the feel for someone who starts to go for value, and getting bluffed off a lower pair isn't the worst thing as it won't happen all the time. I like the check call with 1 over, 2 or more and it becomes way more of a gamble. If you are OOP, this is one of the spots I've considered using a donk bet either on the flop or the turn. You can get a bit more information depending on whether they call or raise, sometimes you just generate the fold as they place you on a strong holding that hit

i've had a lot of this lately, QQ/KK into AA. it's tough because i've been playing mostly 6max---really hard to fold monsters when short handed and everyone is calling/raising light. SwC loves dealing out them cooler cards!

i have also seen quite a few tough hands with TT and JJ lately. always an overcard or two on the flop, and with aggressive preflop betting, larger postflop pots than i like to see in that situation. i need to crunch the numbers and work out a solid postflop strategy with 99-JJ. i'm beginning to feel like there are some holes to plug.

Thanks for recording and uploading these!

I didn't realize me and Obaming were playing for 45mins in the end. Now looking at it again, this is probably the most scared/conservative poker played in the series by far and it's not like any of us needed points to qualify for the championship game. I guess this is what you get when both player's main objective was not to lose.

Okay let's talk about a new hand which I experienced earlier. I am not going to disclose what I did before I hear some of the experts input here:


Wtf will be your next move?

Note: Khaled's turn on the table and other two are already not in the equation.

Good to know that I am not alone. For me QQ and QJ are also nightmares.

Thanks, I was waiting for that one video from April 18th We already talked a bit about that one hand in the chat:

https://youtu.be/E1JzpZtnDaM?t=2243

I had you on pocket pair JJ or a bit worse, but not TT, or the hand you were actually holding (AK). I "knew" you weren't that strong, so I could make you fold on the river. By trying to outsmart you, you actually outsmarted me, because I wasn't thinking it through till the end.

As said in the chat, I was expecting a river bet from you, where I then would have re-raised all-in. What I missed is that you were very unlikely to make a river bet with what I put you on. JJ would have probably done a small river bet, but all other hands just check behind with this board.

AJ is really a nightmare to me. Often times I just throw it away pre-flop - even on the button or SB - because I am traumatized with it.

First off I'll repost the videos of the Bitcointalk poker series here.
Saturday April 18th
Sunday April 19th
Saturday April 25th
Sunday April 26th

I fared rather poorly throughout but if you see any plays in there you want to talk just post a link.

---

Secondly I thought I might take this thread in a different direction. I'll still bring the odd spot here and there but I am going to begin posting the hands that bust me. Some of these I'm sure I should get away from at some point but most of them I feel I made the right decision and play. This one though, has confirmed I gave poker the will to manifest and show me how much it truly detests me.

Here I sit with about 6 BB 2 off the money. I have been folding out hands for the last 40 minutes roughly. I have watched 4 smaller stack double up on crazy draws. Then I am tossed this lifeline...
Game Hand #331173253 - Tournament #20417475 - Holdem(No Limit) - Level 28 (2750.00/5500.00)- 2020/05/01 05:18:59 UTC
Table '20' 9-max Seat #1 is the button

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Main pot 5280.00
Dealt to hero [Kc Kh]
Hero raises 32448.00 to 32448.00 and is all-in

Villain BB calls 26948.00
*** FLOP *** [9d 3s 7s]
Main pot 72926.00
*** TURN *** [9d 3s 7s] [4d]
Main pot 72926.00
*** RIVER *** [9d 3s 7s 4d] [Qs]
Main pot 72926.00
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Main pot 72926.00
Villain [As Ah] (a pair of Aces [As Ah Qs 9d 7s])
Hero shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings [Kh Kc Qs 9d 7s])

So I've had a few of these lately. AA dropping to 77 all-in pre. Couple of over pairs to a board losing to flopped sets. Top Top losing to flopped sets and or flopped straights... those were interesting. So I figured why not share some of the misery  

Thanks for taking the time to watch it and all comments are appreciated.
When I was looking back I wasn't sure exactly what I had put them on. Limp bets area tough call, My estimates where an Ax or Kx, maybe some braodway combos with a J or Q, I figured they most likely had a pair but nothing really strong.
The bet itself was meant as a polarizing size by going Pot or just a little over I believe. I would do the same thing sometimes with a made straight in this position.
This one is just something that is outside my range for hands I will play, the second time around I wasn't actually thinking about it I was AFK... sorry guys lol. I would definitely play it though as SB VS BB.
The first one I would play as a fold or a raise sometimes. It's hard to figure out a set strategy for this game with all the limped bets pre. With some people I treat it as if they had raised pre and accept that is their standard open.
The A2 again would be a hand I would play S VS BB all day. The second hand UTG is just to loose for me with so many people behind left to act, if it were suited though I would likely play it.
Again just a little shy of my re-raise range, suited might fall into that category. I also know figment is a competent player so I remain aware of that when given the chance to get out of line.
If I had less than 2500 chips for sure. It is tough to watch them fold through when you are so short, but with ~12BB  I can still afford an orbit or 2 waiting for a better spot.

---

Here is how the previous hands I posted here ended up.

Hand #2 I re-reaise and Jam putting them all in            *** RIVER *** [Qh 3s 8d Ac] [7c] Is the run out and they show [Jd Td] I scoop the post

Hand #3 I call and the flop is *** FLOP *** [3d Td 6h]                  Main pot 27000.00 Hero Checks checks Villain bets 13500.00 Hero ?? s

Hand #4 Hero re-raises to 42750.00 Villain Jams making it 140549.00            Hero??

^  Easier said than done.  Smart, thinking players play tricky vs you and make you think they're playing some hand when they're really playing something else.  That's why it's taught to better think of playing your equity vs a range of hands than vs a specific hand.

Actually if you already know how yo read someone's card then probably it would be teally easy for you to win on every rounds in poker because you will gain it through the experience just like me I caj read someone's csrd according to their movements or betting styles so it is really helpful to use those kind of tricks when you sre betting or gambling in poker or different hand cards. That would be the only strategy I can taught to you.

It's a pattern you can often observe and I tend to do the same (we are all humans after all). Pocket Pair and two overcards on the flop get checked out of position. When the turn pairs one of the overcards, that pocket pair feels way stronger - which it certainly is just from mathematical point of view - and you can see 1/2 pot turn bets then.

---

I have sent you 1000 chips on SwC for the side bet.

not a bad a read. i had a pocket pair.


agreed, sorta just commenting on how frustrating it can be to play broadway cards (especially gapped/unsuited) postflop.

i think there are solid preflop betting ranges that say AQ (especially AQo) is an open raise/call and not a 3-bet, even in late position. it's all about how tight vs aggressive you wanna be at the time.

I'll fold. I am most likely beat then, so no need to invest more chips and/or wait for a miracle on the river.


I would probably check too then. It's too dangerous with just overcards (and no draws) to invest more chips and you are most likely just waiting to re-raise me


Hard to put you on a range so early in the tournament. That bet on the turn looks 6s to 8s. Your preflop bet more like QQ+. But I guess you had something completely different^^


Yes, but you have to check out, where you stand with your hand. For this very hand it is easy to judge (for you) what is right and what is wrong, because you know both hands. But you need some general approach to play these kind of hands, which are/look strong preflop, but are often a nightmare to play postflop, if you don't hit. Thats why I would isolate the raiser first. Often times, a re-raise preflop and a c-bet on the flop will get you the pot already. If not, you ran into some better hand or opponent flopped something good and it's better to give up then.

i remember this hand. i would have called a preflop 3-bet. i would have check-called a c-bet (or maybe opened) on that flop too.

what do you do now if i open on the turn? how about if i check? are there 9s, 10s, and pocket pairs in my range?

missed boards with overcards are a bitch unless villain is super weak, and you're confident you can get him to fold.