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Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 12. (Read 25676 times)

hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 01:26:53 PM
If people stop buying BTC then miners will stop mining. How is it different from a ponzi scheme?

Really .... really?  Roll Eyes Ok, you cannot possibly be that ignorant, being around this long.
You are just trolling and I have better things to do than play games.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 01:23:42 PM
I'm not going to debate "is Bitcoin a ponzi scheme".

Aye, we derailed the thread.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 01:20:49 PM
That's not what a ponzi scheme is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Read http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm and ask yourself - what if Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme but "mutated" because Bitcoin is a decentralized entity.


The SEC page says essentially the same as the wikipedia page:

Quote
A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors.

If you want to mutate the definition of a Ponzi scheme, than anything could be one.
I'm not going to debate "is Bitcoin a ponzi scheme".



legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
That's not what a ponzi scheme is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Read http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm and ask yourself - what if Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme but "mutated" because Bitcoin is a decentralized entity.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 01:13:24 PM

The link doesn't asnwer, also Bitcoin Wiki is not a credible source of information on anything that criticizes Bitcoin.

If people stop valueing a coin, yes it becomes worthless, duh.  True for PoW,PoS, proof of whatever...

That's not what a ponzi scheme is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 01:10:20 PM

The link doesn't asnwer, also Bitcoin Wiki is not a credible source of information on anything that criticizes Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 01:01:28 PM
PoW is not a ponzi, if you have any understanding how PoW works then you will know this is the case.

PoW will only be inflating until all of the units have been received via the block subsidies at which point the miners will receive block rewards from TX fees, which is the same how PoS coins reward their "miners"

If people stop buying BTC then miners will stop mining. How is it different from a ponzi scheme?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#Is_Bitcoin_a_Ponzi_scheme.3F
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 12:57:52 PM
PoW is not a ponzi, if you have any understanding how PoW works then you will know this is the case.

PoW will only be inflating until all of the units have been received via the block subsidies at which point the miners will receive block rewards from TX fees, which is the same how PoS coins reward their "miners"

If people stop buying BTC then miners will stop mining. How is it different from a ponzi scheme?
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
Thug for life!
December 27, 2014, 12:46:36 PM
One of several great things about 100% PoW is that it isn't ideal as a scam/ponzi/P&D coin because distribution is open to anyone doing the work, is expensive and any weak PoW currencies who don't capture the interest of the public with true innovation quickly get attacked because they don't have the mining hashrate to sustain against an aggressor.

You can easily spot a scammy PoW coin by it having a extremely sharp rather than gradual distribution curve - I.E... Quark.

It seems to me that (unlike PoS) PoW must be a ponzi scheme or ever-inflating, otherwise it will be unsustainable.
PoW is not a ponzi, if you have any understanding how PoW works then you will know this is the case.

PoW will only be inflating until all of the units have been received via the block subsidies at which point the miners will receive block rewards from TX fees, which is the same how PoS coins reward their "miners"
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 12:45:23 PM
One of several great things about 100% PoW is that it isn't ideal as a scam/ponzi/P&D coin because distribution is open to anyone doing the work, is expensive and any weak PoW currencies who don't capture the interest of the public with true innovation quickly get attacked because they don't have the mining hashrate to sustain against an aggressor.

You can easily spot a scammy PoW coin by it having a extremely sharp rather than gradual distribution curve - I.E... Quark.

It seems to me that (unlike PoS) PoW must be a ponzi scheme or ever-inflating, otherwise it will be unsustainable.

Distribution model (rate of issuance) and security model (PoS vs PoW) are two different things.  And "Ponzi scheme"
is something else entirely.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 12:41:56 PM
In politics that's called FASCISM.

Boys and girls, don't argue with this guy, you will simple waste your time. I quoted yet another example (among 1000s) when he creates strawmen and then successfully attacks them.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 12:38:27 PM
One of several great things about 100% PoW is that it isn't ideal as a scam/ponzi/P&D coin because distribution is open to anyone doing the work, is expensive and any weak PoW currencies who don't capture the interest of the public with true innovation quickly get attacked because they don't have the mining hashrate to sustain against an aggressor.

You can easily spot a scammy PoW coin by it having a extremely sharp rather than gradual distribution curve - I.E... Quark.

It seems to me that (unlike PoS) PoW must be a ponzi scheme or ever-inflating, otherwise it will be unsustainable.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 12:30:59 PM
POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-identify-a-bitcointard-848881

Point 7


Quoting a FUD thread won't win any credibility.
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
December 27, 2014, 12:13:52 PM
Alt coins seem to become more and more trashy.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 12:08:18 PM
I would summarize things as follows:

Given the same distribution (issuance),
the energy cost is going to be same no matter what
scheme you use, but PoW is the simplest, most
proven, and arguably the most fair.
I've seen you mention that before but can't quite wrap my head around the notion that PoS will use a lot of energy. Can you give a scenario?

It's explained in this article: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

It depends on implementation of the coin, but something like making
alternate chains or addresses...spending CPU power to compete for
the rewards until its no longer profitable to keep doing so.



This is completely clueless. A simple block production bond system makes it unprofitable to ever attempt to produce blocks on more than one chain at a time. This is actually yet another permutation of the naive nothing at stake "problem" that has been solved ages ago by DPOS.

It's quite amazing that people are so emotionally invested in proof of waste that they continue to cling on to these non-issues in desperation.


I'll refer to the article again:

Quote
switching the payout-trigger to a social or political dimension (as in Delegated-PoS) would merely transpose the work-expenditures correspondingly to the realms of bribery and propaganda, which Bitshares has already seen.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6096.45

The bottom line is:  if there is money to be made,
people will do whatever is possible to compete for it.
You really can't stop competition and people trying
to game the system in some way.  

To put it more concretely with DPOS:  If Bitshares
really took off and was generating a million dollars
worth of rewards everyday like Bitcoin does now,
don't you think people would be trying to become
delegates?  Don't you think certain motivated
people or groups would try to get 5, 10, 25, 50,
or more of the delegate slots?

What would stop them from investing money to
do so, given that the payouts would be enormous?

Furthermore, why wouldn't a delegate re-invest
his profits into trying to acquire more delegate spots?

On a side note: Security deposits may solve an aspect of the "nothing at
stake" issue, but they do not stop competition.

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 12:02:31 PM
I would summarize things as follows:

Given the same distribution (issuance),
the energy cost is going to be same no matter what
scheme you use, but PoW is the simplest, most
proven, and arguably the most fair.
I've seen you mention that before but can't quite wrap my head around the notion that PoS will use a lot of energy. Can you give a scenario?

It's explained in this article: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

It depends on implementation of the coin, but something like making
alternate chains or addresses...spending CPU power to compete for
the rewards until its no longer profitable to keep doing so.

OK, I get that.

This is completely clueless. A simple block production bond system makes it unprofitable to ever attempt to produce blocks on more than one chain at a time. This is actually yet another permutation of the naive nothing at stake "problem" that has been solved ages ago by DPOS.

It's quite amazing that people are so emotionally invested in proof of waste that they continue to cling on to these non-issues in desperation.
Yeah, um VMs would do the trick. Also it appears your solution is to increase energy requirements anyway.
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
December 27, 2014, 11:57:24 AM
I would summarize things as follows:

Given the same distribution (issuance),
the energy cost is going to be same no matter what
scheme you use, but PoW is the simplest, most
proven, and arguably the most fair.
I've seen you mention that before but can't quite wrap my head around the notion that PoS will use a lot of energy. Can you give a scenario?

It's explained in this article: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

It depends on implementation of the coin, but something like making
alternate chains or addresses...spending CPU power to compete for
the rewards until its no longer profitable to keep doing so.



This is completely clueless. A simple block production bond system makes it unprofitable to ever attempt to produce blocks on more than one chain at a time. This is actually yet another permutation of the naive nothing at stake "problem" that has been solved ages ago by DPOS.

It's quite amazing that people are so emotionally invested in proof of waste that they continue to cling on to these non-issues in desperation.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 11:53:35 AM
I would summarize things as follows:

Given the same distribution (issuance),
the energy cost is going to be same no matter what
scheme you use, but PoW is the simplest, most
proven, and arguably the most fair.
I've seen you mention that before but can't quite wrap my head around the notion that PoS will use a lot of energy. Can you give a scenario?

It's explained in this article: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/

It depends on implementation of the coin, but something like making
alternate chains or addresses...spending CPU power to compete for
the rewards until its no longer profitable to keep doing so.

full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
December 27, 2014, 11:52:59 AM
You haven't heard? Ethereum is going to be PoW. BitShares is DPoS , not PoS. Nxt is slowly dying and losing place to PoW and Debt based currencies.

There is no fundamental difference between DPoS and PoS.

Regarding Ethereum, here is the latest news - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPsCGvXyrP4. It says that Ethereum will be PoS.

DPOS makes the blockchain a lot more like a company than the wild west free-for-all of mining/forging that PoW/PoS entails. Block producers are not determined by the stake they own, they're determined by their reputation and trustworthiness in the community, and what they can offer in return for their block production (development, marketing, etc.). Like a mix between NXT and ripple if ripple labs was decentralized and run on the blockchain.


DPOS has no justification to make that claim. DPOS sells votes to the highest bidder. In politics that's called FASCISM. Unless you have a way to positively identify your voter registration, you will never have a fair election.

Bitshares shareholder voting system is no different than the system used in every single public or private company in the world. Are you saying the system of joint-stock companies are "fascism"? Nice attempt at FUD, though, gotta have to give you a 2/5.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 11:49:53 AM
I would summarize things as follows:

Given the same distribution (issuance),
the energy cost is going to be same no matter what
scheme you use, but PoW is the simplest, most
proven, and arguably the most fair.
I've seen you mention that before but can't quite wrap my head around the notion that PoS will use a lot of energy. Can you give a scenario?
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