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Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 15. (Read 25670 times)

hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 04:36:49 AM
PoS coins have value because the marketplace dictates so based upon both utility and speculation.

This is mostly true and why I am a big fan of PoS coins. I think every Central Bank should have one.

Fiat really is an archaic form of PoS.  Centralization also has advantages over decentralization. Decentralization is very costly and inefficient.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 04:33:43 AM
PoS coins have value because the marketplace dictates so based upon both utility and speculation.

This is mostly true and why I am a big fan of PoS coins. I think every Central Bank should have one.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 04:30:36 AM
No. The supply was fixed in 2009.

You misplaced plans and their realization.
Who's plans were misplaced and where were they supposed to be?
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 04:15:35 AM
No one will attack PoS coins, it cost nothing to make, it does not have any value, why attack it? Do you ever want to attack bitcoin when it was worth nothing during 2009? Bitcoin's value grows together with the mining cost, however for PoS coins I can not see how its value can grow without its cost growing. And once it has a cost, it will waste energy

This fallacious and the same flawed line of reasoning goldbugs use against bitcoin when they speak of intrinsic value. PoS coins have value because the marketplace dictates so based upon both utility and speculation.

Even if you believe they lack value and hate them they still have value because someone else values it. If someone dumped 100 paycoins2 ponzicoins on me I would gladly take them because it would be worth my time dumping them for fiat or BTC on an exchange.

The reason why PoS tends to be secure is that with most marketplaces a majority of the coins is held by the founders and developers who have a vested financial and emotional stake in the viability of their project and thus are unlikely to attack it. This also leaves PoS/DPoS with some of the same security vulnerabilities as PoW and centralized mining pools where a small group of people can be compromised to attack the network.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 04:12:05 AM
So you really think majority of hash power having full control of the protocol is better then stake holders leading the coin development? Are you serious?

To control the majority of hash power, you must put real resources and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few stake holders. Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POS, then top 10 stake holders will immediately enter the watch list of CIA

Yes i agree with you, it is ACTUALLY more difficult to control majority of bitcoin hash power then a few major stake holders of a 1 year old POS coin.
However it will not always stay the same, as POW mining reward decreases and POS coins get more distributed the former becomes weaker and the latter becomes stronger.
If you try to attack two coins with the same market cap, one is POS and the other one is POW, you will probably end up wasting a lot more resources attacking the POS.
POW ages like milk, POS ages like wine.

No one will attack PoS coins, it cost nothing to make, it does not have any value, why attack it? Do you ever want to attack bitcoin when it was worth nothing during 2009? Bitcoin's value grows together with the mining cost, however for PoS coins I can not see how its value can grow without its cost growing. And once it has a cost, it will waste energy
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 04:12:00 AM
No, I believe that PoW is equal to PoS if we measure all pros and cons. PoW or PoS is just a matter of trade-offs.

Yes, I agree that DPoS, TPoS , PoS all have unique security benefits that PoW lacks as well.
PoW has some security aspects that PoS lacks too. Unfortunately(from a perspective of curiosity), since Bitcoin has such a large lead and a much better network effect we are unlikely to see an fair battle between the two as history has shown that technologies must have a significant competitive
advantage to be able topple the established incumbent with such a sizable lead.

I.E.. dvorak keyboard is superior to qwerty but not significant enough to change peoples behaviors.

I am not suggesting PoS is slightly superior either but merely the fact that any alt has to be shown to be significantly superior to Bitcoin in order to catchup.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 27, 2014, 04:09:40 AM
Proof of stake seeks security without cost,
but the laws of economics say that security
costs will always rise to meet the rewards...

Laws of Economics are not universal, they are environment dependent. Change environment (this is what cryptos do) and you will change the laws.

Right now we observe that there are some PoS systems that consume almost no electricity but have not been successfully attacked yet (and the reward is very appealing). Your statement contradicts to observations and this makes me suspect that you are wrong...


...And if you don't want rewards to secure the
system, then you'd be taking away one of
the most important aspects of Bitcoin's security model,
which is incentivizing people to honestly participate
in the network instead of attacking it.

Noone proved that Bitcoin's security model is the only viable one.

not sure if you mean reward as in block reward or just the fact that alts have a market value.
eventually Bitcoin will run only on transaction fees, similar to how nxt does it now, in that the
security cost will become equal to the transaction fees in both cases (unless you don't believe
people will try to game the system to compete for maximum profits).  

So, then the question becomes: what is the security cost during the issuance phase?
While it may be true that a major PoS alt hasn't been successfully attacked,
we don't know if this approach can scale or that people want it.  

As others have said, these alt coins already exist, so all we need do
is wait and see what unfolds.  if the PoS system is indeed viable and superior
as some claim, we should see it start to gobble up market share...right?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 04:03:11 AM
Are you aware that neither of us have enough data to give an accurate reflection and projection of the weight of each of these variables?

Yes, I think the same.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 04:02:31 AM
One good point.
I believe there are multiple weaknesses within PoW.
Do you believe there is any security advantages intrinsic within PoW, which PoS lacks? (whether or not PoS is superior to PoW overall is another question)

No, I believe that PoW is equal to PoS if we measure all pros and cons. PoW or PoS is just a matter of trade-offs.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 04:01:53 AM
History has shown that B tends increase when inflation drops with Bitcoin.

Let me to disagree with your interpretation of the historical facts. More likely that you overlooked other factors that contributed their [much higher] weights.

I am aware of those variables. Are you aware that neither of us have enough data to give an accurate reflection and projection of the weight of each of these variables?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:59:51 AM
History has shown that B tends increase when inflation drops with Bitcoin.

Let me to disagree with your interpretation of the historical facts. More likely that you overlooked other factors that contributed their [much higher] weights.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 03:58:22 AM
#99
Great. I would like to hear some of your opinions on what aspects PoW maintains that are superior to PoS, if any.

Unlike PoW, PoS can't use Simple Payment Verification method. This is where PoW is superior. (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29476/what-are-some-of-the-pitfalls-of-a-100-proof-of-stake-currency-pos-like-nxt/)

One good point.
I believe there are multiple weaknesses within PoW.
Do you believe there is any security advantages intrinsic within PoW, which PoS lacks? (whether or not PoS is superior to PoW overall is another question)
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:57:58 AM
#98
No. The supply was fixed in 2009.

You misplaced plans and their realization.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:51:29 AM
#97
Great. I would like to hear some of your opinions on what aspects PoW maintains that are superior to PoS, if any.

Unlike PoW, PoS can't use Simple Payment Verification method. This is where PoW is superior. (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29476/what-are-some-of-the-pitfalls-of-a-100-proof-of-stake-currency-pos-like-nxt/)
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 03:51:16 AM
#96
A = resources you have to waste to attack the coin
B = market cap of the coin
k = constant

Y = Probability the coin is succesfully attacked in the real world = k * (B/A)

Since A in a POW coin is proportional to inflation rate you can conclude that as inflation goes down the probability of an attack increases.

History has shown that B tends increase when inflation drops with Bitcoin. Perhaps it won't always do so in the future, but unless you are claiming to be psychic your comment concerning Bitcoin is ahistorical and fallacious.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 03:51:03 AM
#95
That's why bitcoin block rewards halve every four years.

No, it halves to have a fixed supply. In 100 years.
No. The supply was fixed in 2009.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:47:19 AM
#94
That's why bitcoin block rewards halve every four years.

No, it halves to have a fixed supply. In 100 years.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
December 27, 2014, 03:46:51 AM
#93
To control the majority of hash power, you must put real resources and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few stake holders. Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POS, then top 10 stake holders will immediately enter the watch list of CIA

Money can change ownership much quicker than mining rigs. It's much easier to find a mining farm if you want to control Bitcoin (hint - it consumes a lot of electricity).

PoS currencies naturally decentralize as more and more users join the economy.  This makes it increasingly harder to control a certain percentage of the stake because it requires you to control an ever increasing amount of people.

PoW currencies naturally centralize around large mining groups/corporations as the economies of scale push out smaller miners.  This makes it increasingly easier to control a certain percentage of the hashpower because it requires you to control an ever decreasing amount of miners.
hero member
Activity: 699
Merit: 501
Coinpanion.io - Copy Successful Crypto Traders
December 27, 2014, 03:45:58 AM
#92
Don't forget bitcoin gets a lot weaker at every halving.
Good luck having your wealth in a POW coin with inflation below 2%.

Define "weaker" in your suggested context and provide historical evidence to support this claim.

A = resources you have to waste to attack the coin
B = market cap of the coin
k = constant

Y = Probability the coin is succesfully attacked in the real world = k * (B/A)

Since A in a POW coin is proportional to inflation rate you can conclude that as inflation goes down the probability of an attack increases.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
December 27, 2014, 03:45:26 AM
#91
Don't forget bitcoin gets a lot weaker at every halving.
Good luck having your wealth in a POW coin with inflation below 2%.

Define "weaker" in your suggested context and provide historical evidence to support this claim.

He means that if the price of Bitcoin doesn't double at every halving then the security of the chain will decrease proportionally with decreasing mining ROI.

Hopefully, he doesn't mean this because he is stating it as a fact when it is ahistorical, and rightfully so because of the laws of supply and demand would make it very likely that the price will at least double.

Any clarification on what evidence that bitcoin gets weaker with each halving?
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