Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 18.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on December 26, 2014, 08:19:30 PM

Proof of stake seeks security without cost,
but the laws of economics say that security
costs will always rise to meet the rewards...

Laws of Economics are not universal, they are environment dependent. Change environment (this is what cryptos do) and you will change the laws.

Right now we observe that there are some PoS systems that consume almost no electricity but have not been successfully attacked yet (and the reward is very appealing). Your statement contradicts to observations and this makes me suspect that you are wrong...

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on December 26, 2014, 08:19:30 PM

...And if you don't want rewards to secure the
system, then you'd be taking away one of
the most important aspects of Bitcoin's security model,
which is incentivizing people to honestly participate
in the network instead of attacking it.

Noone proved that Bitcoin's security model is the only viable one.

tss

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if you search,

I AM SURE someone will offer you a POS service for your bitcoin.
send me your coin to my wallet and i will stake it and pay you 1% everyday.

just one caveat, no withdrawal, EVER.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 26, 2014, 10:36:50 AM

Quote from: newuser01 on December 26, 2014, 10:22:31 AM

what makes PoS "better"?

Absence of necessity to burn electricity.

Sorry, but this is not necessarily true at all,
and getting security with no energy cost is
quite possibly a pipe-dream.

Proof of stake seeks security without cost,
but the laws of economics say that security
costs will always rise to meet the rewards...

Which has been discussed at length here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/long-live-proof-of-work-long-live-mining-there-is-no-meaningful-alternative-860194

...And if you don't want rewards to secure the
system, then you'd be taking away one of
the most important aspects of Bitcoin's security model,
which is incentivizing people to honestly participate
in the network instead of attacking it.

One thing is for sure: Proof of Stake is a radical
departure from Bitcoin as we know it, and would
necessarily have to start as a fork into an altcoin,
at least to prove the new model, because everyone
isn't going to just wake up one day
and decide they all want to switch over.

J. J. Phillips

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Islam and Nazism are belief systems, not races.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Wow. I've never seen this thread before. What an original idea!

Would someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to PoS so we can put a stop to these endless discussions about which is better.

PLEASE FORK IT! I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds! PLEASE FORK IT!

I think you're more skeptical of PoS than I am, but I agree with what you're saying here.

Since you're sure you'll sell the forked coins, I'm curious: have you sold your clams? I get the feeling most people (including me until recently) don't realize they had clams. When I found mine, I sold some and kept some.

J. J. Phillips

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Islam and Nazism are belief systems, not races.

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 26, 2014, 02:43:51 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds!

I hate to be a wet blanket but I have to inform you that the fork will be done in a manner that won't let you to have both bitcoins - old-skool and new ones.

Then you and I were talking about two different ideas.

Someone should just fork bitcoinPOS from bitcoin, including forking the block chain. Both have the same starting base and then everytime someone starts another "Why doesn't bitcoin use POS?" thread someone else can respond: there's already a version that does, and you already have bitcoins there.

I really might do this, just out of annoyance with the same thread being posted over and over and over. I don't have a strong opinion on POW vs. POS. It's more that I'm annoyed that people don't just reply to the hundreds of threads on this that already exist rather than start a new one.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Next time use culture agnostic memes, please. Not everyone lives in the USA.

yumei

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Unfortunatly a lot of guys here are already involved in asic mining and they have own interests while argueing pointless contra POS:

Quote

POS=no production cost=no value
If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

So when having costs for producing "something", this "something" will automatically get a value?
We are not even talking about human ressource, it isonly a asic-miner standing in a datacenter and wasting energy.
In my opinion this is nonsense, you won´t find such behaviour anywhere in the economy.

POS has the great advantage of decentralising the bitcoin system again, a lot of more nodes will be available.
Anyway I would not stop mining completely, but for example the mining reward could be dropped strongly from the next reward halving and instead POS rewarding could be introduced.

IT WILL NOT HARM THE REPUTATION OF BITCOINS AT ALL BUT STABILISE THE PRICE DRAMATICALLY.

If we could do a community vote it would be great.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds!

I hate to be a wet blanket but I have to inform you that the fork will be done in a manner that won't let you to have both bitcoins - old-skool and new ones.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: johnyj on December 26, 2014, 01:59:48 PM

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can have value without production cost, because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.

LeChatNoir

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Quote from: johnyj on December 26, 2014, 01:59:48 PM

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-identify-a-bitcointard-848881

Point 7

johnyj

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POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can have value without production cost, because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

J. J. Phillips

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Islam and Nazism are belief systems, not races.

Quote from: LeChatNoir on December 26, 2014, 01:04:45 PM

Bitcoin POS version would turn badly very soon.
99.9 % of bitcoiners are POW fanatics, as soon as you gift them a POS coin they would rush to sell it at any price the market is paying for it.
This would probably crash the market cap of the bitcoin POS to 2 or 300k $, as a consequence it will become very centralized in the hands of a few believers, better stick to the oldest POS coins, they are better distributed then any bitcoin POS fork will ever be.

I suspect most bitcoiners would just ignore the bitcoin-POS fork and I doubt there would be much demand to buy the coins on the fork, at least initially (effectively making the market cap small). This would have the side effect of ensuring the available coins cannot be concentrated in a few hands. 12 million or so of the coins would just sit unmoved like Satoshi's 1 million or so do in bitcoin-POW. I'm curious what would happen in the long term.

I guess we'll never know though, because writing code like

if block >= 338000 then
checkStake...
else
....

where the code for checkStake is ported from some current PoS coin would take a really long time. I guess I could do it, but first I'd need an IPO to raise...1 million dollars. Wink

JessicaSe

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yes
i would love if bitcoin turns POS
we can save the energy

POS interest rates can be same as banks pay us for saving accounts
i think there should be a official poll about this

LeChatNoir

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Bitcoin POS version would turn badly very soon.
99.9 % of bitcoiners are POW fanatics, as soon as you gift them a POS coin they would rush to sell it at any price the market is paying for it.
This would probably crash the market cap of the bitcoin POS to 2 or 300k $, as a consequence it will become very centralized in the hands of a few believers, better stick to the oldest POS coins, they are better distributed then any bitcoin POS fork will ever be.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on December 26, 2014, 12:24:29 PM

But if adoption sky rockets it will keep going up.
Plus I dont get what you are saying because as time goes out supply shrinks so it should go up (if there is a real use for it and people want them)

The point is that PoS is better from economical point of view because unlike PoW it doesn't require to tithe for mining.

BillyBobZorton

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 26, 2014, 11:02:12 AM

Quote from: cbeast on December 26, 2014, 10:56:28 AM

How does PoW cost of mining affect me?

Your wealth loses 10% (35% for Litecoin) every year.

But if adoption sky rockets it will keep going up.
Plus I dont get what you are saying because as time goes out supply shrinks so it should go up (if there is a real use for it and people want them)

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: cbeast on December 26, 2014, 11:29:50 AM

You are moving goalposts. Inflation is not problematic because it is mathematically fixed at a known predictable rate. Price is baked in.

Number of Bitcoins today = 13'646'425
Number of Bitcoin 365 days ago = 12'177'500
Inflation = (13'646'425 - 12'177'500) / 13'646'425 = 10.76%

Price of 1 BTC today = 324 USD
Price of 1 BTC 365 days ago = 734 USD

Aye, the price is indeed baked in.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on December 26, 2014, 11:23:38 AM

Quote from: cbeast on December 26, 2014, 11:05:24 AM

I have the same amount of bitcoins. How did I lose any that is related to energy use?

Inflation. The same as with U.S. dollars.

You are moving goalposts. Inflation is not problematic because it is mathematically fixed at a known predictable rate. Price is baked in.

Thyaga

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Sounds interesting but unlikely.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: J. J. Phillips on December 26, 2014, 11:08:14 AM

Do you mean there is a planned Nxt asset which will be initially distributed using a snapshort of the bitcoin block chain? Clams did something like that. It's one of the few altcoins I've looked at, simply because it turned out I had some and they are now worth a few mbits each. I'm sure if a Nxt asset does something similar, I'll look into it.

Not an asset, a special feature - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nxt-monetary-system-launched-now-on-nxt-testnet-896520

Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 18. (Read 25685 times)