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Topic: Proof of stake mining of bicoin - page 17. (Read 25682 times)

legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 03:15:20 AM
#70
PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms



Enjoy your new masters.

This is for PoS coin stake holders Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
December 27, 2014, 03:14:11 AM
#69
People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.

It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin

The point of bitcoin was to liberate the monetary system from centralized powers (aka the central bankers).  PoS and PoW currencies derive their value from their ability to allow people to escape from centralized monetary systems.  Once a cryptocurrency fails to provide this decentralization and becomes prone to centralization like BTC, the cryptocurrency loses its original value proposition.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 03:13:46 AM
#68
Right and PoS always goes up in price, right? Notice that the average yearly price goes up substantially every year.

Price in dollars is irrelevant. In PoS like Nxt you don't pay 10% tithing. This is why PoS is better than PoW from economical point of view (this is why this subdiscussion was started if you remember).
I don't recall. You changed your arguments too many times to keep track. Your tithing as you call it is called fair distribution. It allows a small amount of wealth to be seeded and encourage economic expansion. It was all published in Satoshi's 2008 white paper. Without some ongoing distribution, you isolate your ecology so outside entities can be excluded from participating.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 03:11:06 AM
#67
So you really think majority of hash power having full control of the protocol is better then stake holders leading the coin development? Are you serious?

To control the majority of hash power, you must put real resources and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few stake holders. Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POS, then top 10 stake holders will immediately enter the watch list of CIA
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:05:55 AM
#66
Right and PoS always goes up in price, right? Notice that the average yearly price goes up substantially every year.

Price in dollars is irrelevant. In PoS like Nxt you don't pay 10% tithing. This is why PoS is better than PoW from economical point of view (this is why this subdiscussion was started if you remember).
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 03:02:14 AM
#65
You are moving goalposts. Inflation is not problematic because it is mathematically fixed at a known predictable rate. Price is baked in.

Number of Bitcoins today = 13'646'425
Number of Bitcoin 365 days ago = 12'177'500
Inflation = (13'646'425 - 12'177'500) / 13'646'425 = 10.76%

Price of 1 BTC today = 324 USD
Price of 1 BTC 365 days ago = 734 USD

Aye, the price is indeed baked in.
Right and PoS always goes up in price, right? Notice that the average yearly price goes up substantially every year.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:01:55 AM
#64
It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin

Doesn't Bitcoin do the same - creates money out of thin air? Why the current reward is 25 BTC instead of 17.82 BTC?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 03:00:06 AM
#63
However, PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms

Pools... farms... What should I do with my Intel Core i5?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1042
White Male Libertarian Bro
December 27, 2014, 02:59:41 AM
#62
PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms



Enjoy your new masters.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 02:57:58 AM
#61
And of course he can write his own textbook on economics.

While you are here - I'm waiting for your reply on https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9950164
hero member
Activity: 699
Merit: 501
Coinpanion.io - Copy Successful Crypto Traders
December 27, 2014, 02:57:30 AM
#60
POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-identify-a-bitcointard-848881

Point 7

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

So you really think majority of hash power having full control of the protocol is better then stake holders leading the coin development? Are you serious?
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 02:54:55 AM
#59
People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.

It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 02:50:05 AM
#58
And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

Controlled hashpower ~ available money. This lead to the conclusion that there is no difference between PoW and PoS except the fact that PoW needs a lot of electricity.

PoS domination once established are unchangeable, this is clearly telling late comers: You are too late, don't join this game. However, PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 02:45:11 AM
#57
Unfortunatly a lot of guys here are already involved in asic mining and they have own interests while argueing pointless contra POS:

Quote
POS=no production cost=no value
If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

So when having costs for producing "something", this "something" will automatically get a value?
We are not even talking about human ressource, it isonly a asic-miner standing in a datacenter and wasting energy.
In my opinion this is nonsense, you won´t find such behaviour anywhere in the economy.



Having a cost does not automatically give something value. However, when something is getting some demand, people will always seek the lowest possible cost to get it, either they mine or they buy. Mining cost is just a indicator of the real demand, if it is too low, capitals will flow into mining, and raise the difficulty to a point that buying cost is almost the same as mining cost

You can imagine, if someone created a very advanced mining machine (like quantum mining rig) thus there is almost no way for normal people to mine the coin without large investment in TIME and R&D, then they can only buy coins from the market. In that case, bitcoin mining can consume much less energy for this specific miner. But as soon as there are other similar companies start to deploy their quantum mining rigs into the field, the situation will change, exactly like what happened in the ASIC mining evolution
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 27, 2014, 02:37:29 AM
#56
Right now we observe that there are some PoS systems that consume almost no electricity but have not been successfully attacked yet (and the reward is very appealing).

How wonderful! I suppose, in that case, we don't need to change Bitcoin after all. People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems. I guess you've put an end to this discussion once and for all. Bravo!

Quote
Laws of Economics are not universal, they are environment dependent. Change environment (this is what cryptos do) and you will change the laws.

And of course he can write his own textbook on economics.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 02:33:09 AM
#55
People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 02:31:25 AM
#54
and start to dump the rest of my coins

Which will adjust the market cap to corresponding level. The coins on that site already passed this stage and established at some level.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 27, 2014, 02:29:38 AM
#53
And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

Controlled hashpower ~ available money. This lead to the conclusion that there is no difference between PoW and PoS except the fact that PoW needs a lot of electricity.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 02:28:38 AM
#52
POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can have value without production cost, because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.

Yes, those information are meaningless

Imagine that I create a coin with 500 coins total supply, I hold 499.999 and sell the rest 0.001 to my another account at a market price of 1000 dollar, I will get a coin exchange rate of 1 million and a market capital of 500 million. With a small amount of capital and a good scheme I can pump the coin price by 10-100 fold and start to dump the rest of my coins
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
December 27, 2014, 02:22:42 AM
#51
POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-identify-a-bitcointard-848881

Point 7


It is not labor theory of value, it is a simple fact that people will always select the lowest cost method to get a coin. POS miner can not get it since they think a POS coin could have same political position as fiat money, sadly no one listen to them because they don't have any army

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary
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