I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).
Topic: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op - page 2. (Read 11341 times)
Well given the new nature of the GB, I may as well post my prices here for you all to see. All prices will include delivery to Allinvain or his colleague, who will in turn graciously provide delivery to the Data Center on the East Coast.
Each PSU setup will be capable of running 2.5 Avalon6 miners, and would consist of the following:
-IBM 2880W PSU w/ fans
-Breakout board (with 22x PCIe connectors)
-C19-C20 cable
-10x 24" 16AWG PCIe cables
15x Miners - 6 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $165 or $66 per Avalon6
40x Miners - 16 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $155 or $62 per Avalon6
75x Miners - 30 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $150 or $60 per Avalon6
100x Miners - 40 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $147.50 or $59 per Avalon6
The only other issue is what happens with the PSU's once the hosting is terminated. Since you can't request a part of a PSU returned to you, and they are being used to power 2.5 miners, everyone will have to come to a consensus. Allinvain has mentioned that the DC may be interested in buying them out depending on pricing at the time. There is also a possibility of looking for a bulk buyer to take them all and dividing the funds equally, if the opportunity arose at the right time.
Each PSU setup will be capable of running 2.5 Avalon6 miners, and would consist of the following:
-IBM 2880W PSU w/ fans
-Breakout board (with 22x PCIe connectors)
-C19-C20 cable
-10x 24" 16AWG PCIe cables
15x Miners - 6 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $165 or $66 per Avalon6
40x Miners - 16 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $155 or $62 per Avalon6
75x Miners - 30 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $150 or $60 per Avalon6
100x Miners - 40 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $147.50 or $59 per Avalon6
The only other issue is what happens with the PSU's once the hosting is terminated. Since you can't request a part of a PSU returned to you, and they are being used to power 2.5 miners, everyone will have to come to a consensus. Allinvain has mentioned that the DC may be interested in buying them out depending on pricing at the time. There is also a possibility of looking for a bulk buyer to take them all and dividing the funds equally, if the opportunity arose at the right time.
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.
Yeah buddy no problem. I could drive them to you or your colleague in either city, considering your drive to the DC is about 8x further, lol.
Armed, PM'ing you back now.
I was not clear at all! The hardware would be temporarily "seized" (IE taken control of) and payments redirected in order to pay for the hosting costs, and then control would be returned after the costs have been covered. I agree that confiscating the miner permanently is extreme!
Good catch, guys.
Good catch, guys.
Seizing the hardware is a bit extreme, and should only be reserved for exceptional cases. I think something more reasonable from the hosting provider's point of view is switching the hardware to mine for the hosting provider until the customer pays the amount owing; thus it's not a double loss.
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
- I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
- BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
- At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
- Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
- If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
- The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
see highlighted...not sure how you can seize something that cost $1300 if someone was one day late on a $323 hosting payment (assuming 6 mo).
this sounds drastic. I would prefer something else, maybe a suspension with hashing going to provider
Edit: yeah, as posted below, if not paid, miner is hashing for provider until payment is made. However miner still belongs to the one who paid for it initially.
Armed has contacted me about purchasing PSU's (the IBM 2880W PSU's) to power the Co-Op, I am going to be putting some bulk pricing together to operate the miners as I feel they are the most reliable/cost effective PSU's for medium-large scale at present.
Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:
The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer. Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy? If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).
Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee. After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.
As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals. In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility). You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.
Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:
The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer. Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy? If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).
Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee. After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.
As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals. In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility). You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.
I agree. Group buy initiated at SPT (for SP-30) also worked with Titan hosting and i did not hear anything wrong about it.
KSS, right?
This seems to be a better method of setup.
Depending on kilo17 and my other options I may do 1-2 units here.
Depending on kilo17 and my other options I may do 1-2 units here.
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.
Good idea there. I'll send finksy a message about that.
I just got off the phone with blockC. They've underclocked the units to 3.5TH/s pending a firmware update from Avalon (same efficiency). They expect that there will be new firmware in 5 weeks which should get them back to 3.65, but in the meantime they've lowered their price accordingly.
I'll be opening this GB tomorrow to collect deposits (so we know who's seriously interested). I'll give a detailed price breakdown of all expenses then. Once we have the quantity picked out, we can get an exact price on our Avalon6 units, and then we can start this ball rolling.
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
- I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
- BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
- At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
- Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
- If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
- The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
Phillip has a point with the multisig--the less people needed to sign off on a transaction, the better odds that a few people go rogue and take the funds. We need to be careful in choosing who holds keys.
You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.
Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.
At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.
You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.
Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.
At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.
I am a Canadian and my business is incorporated. Getting articles of incorporation is in the $1,500-$2,000 CAD range and is very straight forward as far as I know, it can even be done individually online (whether or not that's prudent is another thing). I do not know anything about < or > 50 shareholders, and the applicable laws however if the Corporation is controlled by non-resident shareholders, it is not considered a CCPC and there are different tax implications: http://www.taxspecialistgroup.ca/public/taxtips.asp?n=11-02&site=tsg
What I do not know is if "Transaction Verification Services" are considered an active form of income or investment income, the corporate tax rates here for each are considerably different.
The benefit to registering as a Canadian Corporation would be the corp would save the 5% GST charged for importing the miners here, and if I'm not mistaken the Corporation could claim back 5% of the hosting fee in GST; since no GST is charged in mining, it would be a full tax refund.
The issues are, as a non-CCPC there are no capital gains exemption (CCPC's are entitled to an $800,000 exemption on capital gains when selling their shares in the Corp.) And any income paid out by the corporation would be taxed AFTER corporate tax is paid (Canadians would get taxed as dividend income I believe, I'm not sure how Americans would be taxed).
For these reasons, a Group Buy where everyone is still an individual (with individual hardare using purchasing power together) would make more sense to me.
If you form a corporation would that not mean you would not be paying taxes on the mining operation? If it's like a us Corporation it makes it a LOT less liability to be a officer/owner but there is double taxing. Taxes for corporation and taxes for payments to it's people as well.
I can see why the top of the group would really want corporation to limit personal assets being touched. But I think your opening yourself to a whole lot of costs.
Phillip has a point with the multisig--the less people needed to sign off on a transaction, the better odds that a few people go rogue and take the funds. We need to be careful in choosing who holds keys.
You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.
Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.
At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.
You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.
Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.
At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.
I am a Canadian and my business is incorporated. Getting articles of incorporation is in the $1,500-$2,000 CAD range and is very straight forward as far as I know, it can even be done individually online (whether or not that's prudent is another thing). I do not know anything about < or > 50 shareholders, and the applicable laws however if the Corporation is controlled by non-resident shareholders, it is not considered a CCPC and there are different tax implications: http://www.taxspecialistgroup.ca/public/taxtips.asp?n=11-02&site=tsg
What I do not know is if "Transaction Verification Services" are considered an active form of income or investment income, the corporate tax rates here for each are considerably different.
The benefit to registering as a Canadian Corporation would be the corp would save the 5% GST charged for importing the miners here, and if I'm not mistaken the Corporation could claim back 5% of the hosting fee in GST; since no GST is charged in mining, it would be a full tax refund.
The issues are, as a non-CCPC there are no capital gains exemption (CCPC's are entitled to an $800,000 exemption on capital gains when selling their shares in the Corp.) And any income paid out by the corporation would be taxed AFTER corporate tax is paid (Canadians would get taxed as dividend income I believe, I'm not sure how Americans would be taxed).
For these reasons, a Group Buy where everyone is still an individual (with individual hardare using purchasing power together) would make more sense to me.
Armed has contacted me about purchasing PSU's (the IBM 2880W PSU's) to power the Co-Op, I am going to be putting some bulk pricing together to operate the miners as I feel they are the most reliable/cost effective PSU's for medium-large scale at present.
Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:
The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer. Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy? If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).
Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee. After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.
As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals. In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility). You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.
Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:
The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer. Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy? If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).
Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee. After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.
As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals. In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility). You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.
I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.
Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.
You are essential doing it, except without the legal backing for recourse against potential problems and clear definitions of what happens next. Currently this is actually a more convoluted way to accomplish the goal with less recourse/assurances should problems occur sooner or later.
Phillip mentions some the problems that could arise with multi-sig funds, those are unavoidable at present set up. These multi-sig holders are basically the elected board in a legal business venture/co-op set up. Though it is being based here, by only a few people with mere interest in the group buy and no firm commitments or deposits.
There's talk about what comes after the prepaid period, or the determined period of time of mining, selling miners off or renewing contract. This is the share voting, except without clear instructions, rules, or alternatives to what if risk scenarios.
What if enough people want to cash out, pushing the remaining group buyers that want to continue on to do so without the discounts already in place. The ability to buy/sell shares helps eliminate this threat to those that would continue on with the group, should a significant number choose to cash out and sell.
Then there are the legal ramifications. What if someone runs off with the money, is there only internet posts and witch hunting/doxxing to try and figure out where each user's money went. Having a clear structure with the details needed to be a trustee/board member of an incorporation help clarify the individual(s) accountable in case there is theft or mismanagement.
What if it all goes broke, GND/CB burn to the ground or disconnect and run off ala FriedCat. Would there then be multiple suits brought out by individuals at each their own cost or legal fees?
If the true goal is to allow lower costs and higher profits with increase in ROI, there are still plenty of legal ways to accomplish this outside of gentlemen's agreements via web boards. At the estimates mentioned, it is handling initially around ~>$60,000 of users money to provide a stable set up, and a system to be used for future purchases. Everything is going the right way but without the legal backing if anything should ever go wrong or into disarray.
- Multi-Sig Holders - Board of Trustees/Board of Directors
- Miners/Buyers - Share Holders voting on future of the group
- Hosting - Contracted signatory in charge of use and upkeep of equipment
- Web Board Messages - Voted on by-laws the Co-Op is held accountable to.Better the interests' of share holders with clear definitions
Everyone interested in this buy, needs to think about the risks involved and the futures at stake here in the beginning, before a snowball is set in place.
*edit a couple of fuckery wording
I totally get it, there's lots of potential for things to go sideways.
Thanks for your interest though.
Thanks for your interest though.
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units. 
I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
I have my doubts for this project. For a lot of reasons.
miner prices are one issue.
I am nervous about data center
I am nervous about getting miners from avalon.
I am nervous about coin security.
Lastly I am a known quality many people on this site know my home address. If this goes sideways I can see people knocking on my door.
I would be fine with that if I had more control ,
but I don't and I do not like the idea of being responsible for 50 Avalon 6's or 65k usd. That are mining in another country 1000 plus miles from my house.
I am going to bail on this at the key level.
If I do anything at all maybe I will buy 1 avalon 6 and contribute that way as a simple miner.
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.
I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
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