Topic: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op - page 3. (Read 11341 times)

I see problems with 4 of 6 or 6 of 9

I also see the problem with 5 of 6

how about two sets of 3  each at 2 of 3?

follow  this logic:
 at  5 of six if two people are offline or worse yet have crashed coins could be lost or delayed.
at 4 of 6   armedmilitia and I  can't freeze a transaction and 4 others could rob us.

 worse yet with 6 of 9.  armed militia myself and valkir can not freeze out the other six if they go rouge.

with two sets of 3  
 all different people
  each set at 2 of 3
 coins could be safer and worst case only half lost vs all lost.  I am going to try to download armory via windows 10 and see what happens.

From what I read you used to run miners from your home but it is only in the last couple of months that you created cryptoboreas to be a real hosting company instead of your own personal mine. I am sorry if I misunderstood.


How is it not relevant? We are discussing a group buy and where to host the miners. If I participate in this GB I will want the best deal for hosting. Since you are only now looking for someone to design your mine software that suggests your operation is still in its infancy. You can call it irrelevant if you want but I (and I think many others here) are not just interested in hosting price only but all other factors such as going with a well established host vs one that is just starting up or going with a host with people on site and a fast response vs a site that sits empty 99% of the time and requires someone to make a special trip.


I have only operated a couple of miners ever but in my experience it is not uncommon to encounter problems that a reboot doesn't solve. This depends on the equipment as well of course as some manufacturers make more reliable machines than others.

When you say GND is undercut does that mean you spoke with your contact again recently? From what I read on here it looks like they offer very similar pricing to CB except that in order to get good rates with CB you need to prepay months in advance. Did you get an updated quote from GND for 6 months prepayment? Did they refuse to match or come close to the CB price? If they are asking too much money then I would not be interested in using them but if GND and CB are competing with each other we could let them fight each other to see who will give us the best price until one of them gives up.

If GND matched CB's price, would CB drop their price further and give us an even better deal?

seems good.

Another alternative might be to simply "piggy back on the Get Hashing platform"..do something like this guy is doing:

https://forum.gethashing.com/t/abc-amalgabit-coin/4453
https://forum.gethashing.com/t/diversified-mining-token-dmt-formally-pm1/3957

I can see my assets and track my payouts here: https://www.coinprism.info/address/144ZmMmDtzeP6DjYWpxMhW3v1Y5xozydrT

The other cool thing is if i decide to sell my mining power, I can do it on GH Exchange which is part of the https://cloud.gethashing.com/

Get Hashing's platform will simplify your process and allow for complete transparency.

The only downside is they may not let you use it for your Group Buy as it competes with theirs - ie: GHX.

EDIT: Recent article about Get Hashing: http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gethashing-introducing-a-new-concept-for-cloud-mining/35447

4/6 sounds fine to me. Does anyone have objections? So far we have myself, valkir, klondike, and possibly phillip on board.

Was asked if I mind being a multisig key holder, and am okay with that. I think having more people improves the security and reliability of multisig.

Also, I would not suggest m-1/m (ie:5/6) because only two points of failure are needed, like one lost key and one AFK keyholder. 4/6 or 6/9 provide better distribution and simplify the act of having enough people act together when fund movement is necessary.

Still on the fence over the cost of hash power. 1btc/th is a lot better than before, but another 10-20% bitcoin price movement or competition from sptech/lketc/sidehack/etc could bring prices down <0.8btc/TH

(massive dump of responses inbound)


1.059KW @ 65 CAD/KW works out to $68.84 CAD/MO ($51.89 USD), or $311.34 for the 6 month term. We might be able to do better on that hosting rate depending on qty. It also seems like we can do a 3 month term at the same rate, so $155.67.

There's nothing like some casual death threats to know you're on bitcointalk.  

I'm sure there are plenty of forum members who know who I am and where I live. I purchase hardware frequently on bitcointalk (pretty extensive trading history), so all the people who have shipped to me know my name and address. No way I'm sharing that in public though. Same goes for philip, dogie, and (probably) notlist. Valkir has organized a small group buy in the past and is interested, so I figure he could hold a key too.

As for how the multisig works--we'll be using armory lockbox. When I say 5/6 multisig, it requires only 5 of the 6 key holders to sign any given transaction.


Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.


As for the fan burning out concern--yes, that's true. Is it worth the cost of a faster response time? I'm not sure, since as of right now gnd is undercut by far--I think we'd recoup any losses from downtime because we're paying much less for hosting. Once again, for future buys we can always revisit GND--they should have their datacenter expanded by then.

And you're welcome! I feel that warm fuzzy feeling of gratitude.

As a side note, I just got an email from bitmain last night:
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  

Btw, I hope you do realize that it's not just me doing this. It's not like I put this facility together via remote control. You linking to that thread is irrelevant to the scope of this thread.

We have been around for a while - far more than a month or two. We have customers other than "this carlos guy" but most of them are not active on this forum. 

The system which we're seeking is to automate the management process not to "run a mine remotely." The less we have to do manually the more time we have to sip margaritas on a sandy beach!

The 6 month price does require pre-payment, but I'm sure we can offer that on a shorter 3 month pre-paid term if you're really nice to us If you're super nice and bring in a lot of killowatts we may even do more! We like to build long mutually beneficial and stable relationships with serious miners and we will do everything possible to keep said miners happy.

Sorry I made a mistake in my earlier post. I accidentally linked back to this very thread when I was trying to link to the thread in which allinvain is looking for someone to write software to allow him to run CB remotely.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/need-coder-to-build-a-miner-monitoringaccounting-system-closed-1239603

In general I am all for us securing the best hosting rate but there are other considerations as well.

I am very concerned that this cryptoboreas company has come out of nowhere and appears to have no customers except this carlos guy. Assuming their operation is legit, the fact that they are doing this all with nobody on site makes me worry. Switched PDUs are a great idea if a machine needs to be rebooted. What if a fan burns out or a machine stops responding to reboots? Do we just suffer 100% downtime until allinvain has enough time to make the trek to his facility?

What's also concerning is that although he claims to run the place remotely he apparently doesn't even have that part of the mine operating yet and is looking for someone who knows how to program to build him a system to run a mine remotely.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171705.120

So from what I can see, GND is an established hoster who have been around for a while with good prices and no customer complaints. Cryptoboreas is only a month or two old and also offers good prices but potentially at a massive service cost.

The CB price is good but requires 6 months of prepayment. I bet if we approached GND with CB's price they would match it or come pretty close so we can take advantage of the best price AND the best service. If we can get some assurances CB is actually legit I would really consider going with them if their price is significantly better than GNDs but I don't think the CB risk is worth taking if it's only saving us a buck or two a kw.

I also think torepia has a good idea about getting everything in writing.

I am fine with philipma and dogie having the keys since they are long-established members with good reputations. Thank you also to armedmilitia for doing all the legwork to put this deal together and I look forward to seeing final pricing.

Yeah all I know is ..if I want any access to a MINER virtual only via GUI or /ssh or whatever it will have to be hosted. At 13c kwh where I'm at that boat don't float for sha-256 and BTC. It does float for Scrypt yet. Truth be told a person (I'm talking blasphemy here ....turn away from reading if you think BTC is beyond reproach from and only thing worth mining) ..anyway ....truth be told this COULD (don't know) work better with scrypt miners...but the only LEGIT ones I've heard about ..the price point don't work and they are 6 months away....although I hope they are correct..because IF such scrypt miners did work 6 months from now ..it would be Quite! the btc price pop imho (over $500) so the only 'legit' game in town would probably be this project...

But again 1600 usd with everything hosting etc at 0.06c kwh added Jan 2016 timeline....and what 9 month ROI..well ..doing so you'd kinda HAVE to be counting on BTC price above say $450 by that point imho....so the odds are still long on this ..but hey ...good to do the figures to know for sure......

anyway how i see it at this mangled no info of any reliability at this time

I'm just going to pop in since there is all the talk of ROI and individual payouts. I'm nobody, a lurker, a miner. So these are just thoughts from a semi outside perspective.

The idea that was behind this thread and the thread title are outstanding concepts. The idea of multi-sig fund management is an amazing concept, it starts to diverge when it becomes a group buy scenario. Group buying mining units, group buying hosting, escrow for purchase, a different escrow for hosting. It holds a lot of trust in certain individuals, unless this is all part of the OP post 4-6 multi-sig account as the escrow holders, but I see no mention of that specifically, perhaps it is just assumed.

The idea of a true mining co-op is astonishing. Incorporated as a mining firm, with eyes set on the future. Elected board members from across the world using multi-sig funds to conduct business on behalf of the co-op, with individual hash power as voters in the incorporated co-op business. Elected members donating time to the duties of the co-op to better every share holder, think secretary, treasurer, business manager.

Moving beyond individual ROI to the betterment and growth of the Co-Op and reinvestment of funds to expand, both in mining capacity and revenue streams. Building out or implementing blockchain related services (driveshare storj, micropayment systems, own datacenter/hosting).

Shares can be bought and sold, and include the voting rights, with additional expansions adding shares. Share holders would receive small profits from the additional sales and revenue on agreed upon time segments.

Voted upon bylaws and directives. A miniature bitcoin system with consensus, share holders deciding what is best to move the Co-Op further along, or flat out end and split revenue.

This is somewhat how my electric company operates, they have a semi monopoly on the area of course, but every user is a voting member of the co-op and extra profits are sent out every few years (it amounts to nothing $23 since 2006), but the larger users get a larger portion, and we all have voting rights at share holder meetings, and each have a vote on our board members.

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

It's late, I'm red-bulled up, I apologize.

I'm not quite sure what multi-sig is, but I guess it's transactions that requiers mutiple signatures to be considered signed?
If so, what happens when you get hit by a bus? Is the money gone? Or does it only need 5/6 or 3/4 signatures to be verified?
I wouldn't mind Phillip, notlisted, dogie and you to hold keys, but I would like to know who they are, so that I can find the key-holders if needed. (So I know where to send the SR hitman.)

I could also hold a key if needed, but it's not a big deal for me.

Lets get this ball rolling!

Edit:
Searing, sweet setup!
I'd say 9 months ROI is pretty 'accurate' with the numbers we have available today. But, who knows if we will see 10-15% diff increases or 5%. Or what the BTC price will be.
We should all be prepared to lose our money!

Well my rough figures at approx 1600 USD a unit (1 unit) and the info from other screens on speed/watts/etc

Also assuming the 0.06 elec and the 5% difficulty and such on previous screens I get something like the below as a very rough idea ...

(prob wrong but here it is) NINE month ROI if this is anywhere close to correct...




p.s. posted this to my Imgur page. Here is the link to my setup if interested. lostgonzo.imgur.com The KNC Jupiter 550gh unit on the
bottom shelf is off and used as a gravity assist device to keep my miner bench down The others are 2 Titan Miners running at 350mh Scrypt for LTC to BTC. Alas the last
of Home Mining for me when the Titans go to "Door Stop Status"

well I'm sure someone will find something off on the above for me to fix on this chart..again just rough and out there

I actually put it in, the default is 1%. I like to calc with Antpool's PPS fee as I feel this number is quite realistic. Don't have to deal with PPLNS luck variables in this calculation!

 So just to be clear on your proposal at least equip wise about say 1.5k to get a unit in this endeavor? I realize you are just trying to figure this out..but at least for this
amount I'm somewhere in the ballpark (if not at home base)

thanks just watching to see if I too want to play


edit: duh caught up on the thread have above answered...so say about 1600 usd and we get control of 1 miner ..paid out as a group per whatever schedule.....(some miners go bad ..but paid as a group?). So the total ball park coast for 6 months with hosting?

got the rest from the screens posted here etc

am I caught up now? and such? so...just sit on hands and wait for the announcement of go/no go more or less at this point in time?

(off to run numbers)

That is definitely true, but it is something that we plan to have in the future. However, all our miners go on switched PDUs so if remote reboot is necessary that is an option. You guys can designate one guy to keep an eye on the gear and who will reboot gear when/if necessary. I do hope these Avalon6 miners are stable.

I like that way. Then we aren't even selling shares in some sort of entity, you will have control (and ownership) of your own miner. However, we shouldn't pay month to month for hosting, as that will drive our hosting rate pretty far up by a huge margin! I was thinking we all go in for a 6 month term, then we can see whoever wants to stick around or sell their hardware.

Instead of using an escrow agent like ognasty we could do 5/6 or 3/4 multisig with the largest reputable participants in the group buy holding the keys. We save the escrow fee that way.

Well, that's that then. I think we have this whole thing planned out. It looks like we have considerable interest in the plan as it stands now.

We still have a little bit of ground to cover before we make this thing happen:

• Negotiate an actual cost for the PSUs.
• Figure out who will hold keys. So far, I believe phillip and notlist have shown interest (correct me if I'm wrong), plus there's me. We'll all need to use the latest version of armory on a secure PC. Dogie, if you're interested, I'm sure we'd all like you to hold on to one. Anyone else feel free to step up and nominate yourself.
• Do a test transaction or two with multisig just to get the hang of it (so we dont screw up and lose your money)
• Confirm hosting rates with cryptoboreas.

And as for dogie's comment on projections: yes, we have very little idea of what's coming. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Note that actual mining revenue, even on 0% fee pplns, will only give you 98% of what you expect because of orphan blocks.

[For newbies remember these are speculative simulations, they could turn out to be entirely wrong].


You've left 2.5% fee in, you could take that out and will actually make a sizeable difference.