Group buy is starting! Woohoo!
New thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/closed-group-buy-group-hosting-35ths-avalon6-platinum-psus-1247577
(this thread has been locked)
Topic: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op (Read 11341 times)
On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
For this group buy, no! It's a package deal. 
yeah again just me in that i'm a legal miner in the states can get 15.5% off for 2 years..should i only go with the 2 vs the full 5 years (at 25%) ....for the biz....in equip depreciation on top of this w/o hosting (or hell with hosting it applies too i guess) .... just playing with numbers....whatever edge i can make in this i guess
anyone know off hand the price of these units outside of the GB and hosting deal as a comparison? Need to see the diff in value of GB and hosting vs what the units would go for w/o the group buy and hosting etc....what % savings we talking about here before adding in electric savings (in my case)
(again having fun playing with the math)
well the only other way to beat moq is get one from kilo17 .
I want one in house so I am getting one from him hopefully his come in this friday and he ships one to me no later then sat.
but the world of asice is always a bit unknown.
My list of ifs are as follows
1)kilo17 gets his gear on fri
2)he ships me one fast
3)it arrives to me in nj
4) I test in out on Mon -Tues next week
5) I like it and order 2 here
6) all of the while coins stay pretty steady in the 320 -340 spot
7) all gear is on line and coins whale back to 1200 or more
this group buy is run great9) GND is also great and hosting works fine.
10) By April I will have 3x my money due to the rise in coins
11) I sell off all gear for my summer power price rise.
12) I take a nice long vacation to Australia visit all my wife's family there. (80 or so people)
On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
For this group buy, no! It's a package deal. yeah again just me in that i'm a legal miner in the states can get 15.5% off for 2 years..should i only go with the 2 vs the full 5 years (at 25%) ....for the biz....in equip depreciation on top of this w/o hosting (or hell with hosting it applies too i guess) .... just playing with numbers....whatever edge i can make in this i guess
anyone know off hand the price of these units outside of the GB and hosting deal as a comparison? Need to see the diff in value of GB and hosting vs what the units would go for w/o the group buy and hosting etc....what % savings we talking about here before adding in electric savings (in my case)
(again having fun playing with the math)
Interested in 1 plus a psu as well.
It will come!
Updates:
BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.
Updates:
BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.
I hope to do 2 plus the psu.
I also will order for at least one for in house from kilo17
this would be 3 pieces total.
It will come!
Updates:
BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.
Updates:
BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.
Waiting for full info on this. pricing etc.
all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.
the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.
The problem is that you spend 1600 using BTC now with the risk of having less BTC when price doubles...
The only play, IHMO, is hoping that difficulty slows down to 1 or 2% max per retarget, otherwise the risk of ending up with less BTC one year from now seems real.
Did ROI calculators a year ago predict that the S5's would still be worth what they are today? They haven't really depreciated much at all in fairness. For quite a few generations now skeptics have doubted ROI, assuming that difficulty would drive hardware obsolescence. And yet, those who have bought hardware for the past 12 months have done considerably better than those who have bought coin. We have reached the point where you can factor equity into the purchase price of miners, unlike early generations of ASICs, and that is something that calculators do not include.
Don't forget that for a good half of 2015 difficulty moved very little, now it seems we're back at 4-5% increase each retarget.
Anyway, if, as it seems, there is a lower electricity cost available now.. well, let's redo again all our calculations and predictions and see what they give.
spiccioli
On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
For this group buy, no! It's a package deal.
Finksy:
If members choosing not to renew the hosting contract cannot come to a consensus about what to do with their fractional ownership of PSUs, I think we should sell the excess PSUs and split the funds between them proportionately.
It seems to make the most sense intuitively.
If members choosing not to renew the hosting contract cannot come to a consensus about what to do with their fractional ownership of PSUs, I think we should sell the excess PSUs and split the funds between them proportionately.
It seems to make the most sense intuitively.
There's a lot of good questions here, but at the moment I just have time for a big update:
I have very good news for you guys. Jamie from great north data just got back from out of country (where he had no internet access), and has undercut allinvain's pricing by a fair margin. We'll get cheaper hosting and a 24/7 tech!
I've also sent blockC a message relating to the recent drop in BTC price to see if they will lower their quote for the Avalon6.
I was about 90% of the way done the new group buy post when jamie emailed me. I've put that on hold until we sort out the details. Hopefully we can still get this underway by the end of today!
I have very good news for you guys. Jamie from great north data just got back from out of country (where he had no internet access), and has undercut allinvain's pricing by a fair margin. We'll get cheaper hosting and a 24/7 tech!
I've also sent blockC a message relating to the recent drop in BTC price to see if they will lower their quote for the Avalon6.
I was about 90% of the way done the new group buy post when jamie emailed me. I've put that on hold until we sort out the details. Hopefully we can still get this underway by the end of today!
I suppose they could but are there any issues with multiple psu's power an avalon 6.
we may find 2 ¼ is better then 2 or 2 ½
one avalon 6 would use a pcie from 4 psu's
rather
then one avalon 6 using a pcie from 2 psu's
I think a lot depends on the owner of the avalon 6. If these prove to be real flexible in over clock or under clock and up volt or down volt.
we may find 2 ¼ is better then 2 or 2 ½
one avalon 6 would use a pcie from 4 psu's
rather
then one avalon 6 using a pcie from 2 psu's
I think a lot depends on the owner of the avalon 6. If these prove to be real flexible in over clock or under clock and up volt or down volt.
Phillip,
2500W DC (2.5 Avalon6) is well within the capability of the IBM 2880W PSU's, for long-term reliability and efficiency. These are nothing like ATX PSU's as far as durability, 87% steady load is a walk in the park. However, as far as safety is concerned it is naturally up to the hosting facility to decide, as they are the ones with the liability. 2 1/4 miners wouldn't work as the Avalon 6's use only 2 hashboards, and mfr's don't recommend having multiple PSU's on one board.
I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.
Did ROI calculators a year ago predict that the S5's would still be worth what they are today? They haven't really depreciated much at all in fairness. For quite a few generations now skeptics have doubted ROI, assuming that difficulty would drive hardware obsolescence. And yet, those who have bought hardware for the past 12 months have done considerably better than those who have bought coin. We have reached the point where you can factor equity into the purchase price of miners, unlike early generations of ASICs, and that is something that calculators do not include.
Now, with the halving coming, revenue will be cut in half. However, I don't believe that the interest in bitcoin will be cut in half. In between the lowering of difficulty (due to many miners becoming un-profitable) and the raise in price due to similar demand and lowered supply, I don't believe anything drastic will happen in the world of mining, and that current gen miners will stay profitable for a long time to come. Just my BTC
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units. 
I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.
Here's the game plan:
- I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
- BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
Good update, I just want to clarify a few things. Do you have final pricing from BlockC on the machines? Also what are the final offers you got from the most competitive hosters?
I also agree with anyone who is not making payment will have their pool settings switched to mine to the hosts account until their account is back in good standing, that is the only fair thing to do.
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).
this is penny foolish and pound wise
ie I like the idea
Well,
I have several PSUs of this kind powering some SP20s, each PSU has 3 powerfull fans which lower total efficiency if underutilized.
At 2.5 Avalons each we should be at 2.5 - 2.6 kW per PSU so at around 90% utilization of the PSU.
Just my 2c.
spiccioli
I suppose they could but are there any issues with multiple psu's power an avalon 6.
we may find 2 ¼ is better then 2 or 2 ½
one avalon 6 would use a pcie from 4 psu's
rather
then one avalon 6 using a pcie from 2 psu's
I think a lot depends on the owner of the avalon 6. If these prove to be real flexible in over clock or under clock and up volt or down volt.
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.
Here's the game plan:
- I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
- BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
- At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
- Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
- If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
- The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.
Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.
Great plan...with the clarity on the seizure aspect. You might want to start a new thread with Group Buy and Avalon6 in the title. You might end up doing a couple batches if demand continues after the first GB.
On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
The reason I ask is my 'unique' situation with equip and deductions with IRS as that I'm a legal miner in USA. (again don't ask see my previous posts...trapped I was)
Anyway at 12.5% equip depreciation the first year and the remaining depreciation I can take off taxes owed for the next 4 years for the other 12.5% ..should I choose to run this 'bitcoin biz out that far"...well ......anyway even at my electric at 2x as much ..it could just plain be a wash for me..comparatively speaking. (I figure even if I just do 2 years on this miner before saying the hell with it that is 15.5% off the equip price on top of the group buy)
Anyway just asking ..fully understand if you tell me to go "stuff it"...... Just trolling for options on this....from my somewhat 'odd' mining situation...and IRS etc.
The reason I ask is my 'unique' situation with equip and deductions with IRS as that I'm a legal miner in USA. (again don't ask see my previous posts...trapped I was)
Anyway at 12.5% equip depreciation the first year and the remaining depreciation I can take off taxes owed for the next 4 years for the other 12.5% ..should I choose to run this 'bitcoin biz out that far"...well ......anyway even at my electric at 2x as much ..it could just plain be a wash for me..comparatively speaking. (I figure even if I just do 2 years on this miner before saying the hell with it that is 15.5% off the equip price on top of the group buy)
Anyway just asking ..fully understand if you tell me to go "stuff it"
...... Just trolling for options on this....from my somewhat 'odd' mining situation...and IRS etc.I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).
this is penny foolish and pound wise
ie I like the idea
Well,
I have several PSUs of this kind powering some SP20s, each PSU has 3 powerfull fans which lower total efficiency if underutilized.
At 2.5 Avalons each we should be at 2.5 - 2.6 kW per PSU so at around 90% utilization of the PSU.
Just my 2c.
spiccioli
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.
I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here
Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.
I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.
BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.
What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.
Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.
spiccioli
Yeah I'm running into the same damn "MATH" you are....and of course when was the last time equip from an ASIC mnfg arrived ON TIME. As an example I have 2 Titan 650mh total scrypt miners running at 13c kwh ...assuming I could host them for 1/2 the elec costs etc and the equip is free (paid for ROI) I would make MAYBE an extra (after shipping fees etc hosting for 6 months) maybe say 75 bucks extra a month in elec savings....so using that kinda logic you toss up NEW equip at the prices and it kinda sorta becomes problematic quick. A person wonders it it really worth the hassle or risk on equip arriving on time and all the ducks in a row etc etc
The only catch I may have others may not is I'm a LEGAL miner in the states..ie the IRS knows about my efforts and approves...(read that sad tale on how it happened an a prev post back) anyway due to buying too much equip in 2013 and 2014 and it arriving at then back end of each year (that helped) I have paid no real taxes so far..and some extra $$$ to the CPA so been lucky
My point is under such a scenario if you are legal in my manner (don't recommend it but again my situation) I can get 1/2 of the 25% depreciation on equip back in my taxes paid to IRS the first year and that remaining 12.5% back parceled out the next 4 years (should I run the bitcoin biz that long into the future) bitcoin miners under the 2013 IRS virtual currency guidelines are considered computer equip and can be depreciated as such. (this is why my CPA laughs and says I'm a farmer she treats my entire business like the farmers she serves..same deal in that IRS treats mined currency as land and capital gains and all...and viola my ltc miners are 'tractors' so to speak)
So anyway there may be a bit of a hedge for me in my legal setup above and beyond that makes this attractive from showing IRS my bona fides and such with the equip discounts (and that would include hosting fee etc I think but likely NOT electric)
but then again as in previous posts ..I may be thinking too shallow here if it is a long term ..go for broke ...build it up in future with SP50's balls to the wall project..if that is so..well hell I've dumped $1,600 bucks in dumber things
anyway my rambling thoughts at this time.
(man this is complex at least in my feeble little mind)
edited: got rid of USA hosting I re-read previous posts it is hosting in Canada from what I understand. The benefits to me as a legal miner on equip depreciation in states still applies thou to myself or others in my situation....so again 12.5% off equip purchase (and i think hosting) the 1st year ...is helpful in my situation. Also shows some bona fides for the biz (ie making revenue modest thou it may be) for the IRS to show me as continuing to be a legit biz
As a side note in 2013 a guy named LAB RAT tried to do something similar as you all with BFL ...but BFL as you know never shipped equip so it was a complete fiasco...not sure what kind of protections you can put in place for something like that ..just saying...good intentions sometime end up as roadkill w/o any fault to those involved.
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).
this is penny foolish and pound wise
ie I like the idea
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