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Topic: Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s - page 115. (Read 96804 times)

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Black Arrow has been taking Pre Orders for like 6 months !! They have easily made millions in Pre orders by now and they don't really have shit to show for it but more CGI pictures and more Pre order deals that make them look like its such a great deal for the price per Gh/s that you get. How many Pre order batches do you need to sale befor you even deliver on the first one !! LoL


I know.  Cointerra is selling June right now and they're still showing end of April.  How that end of April date is possible for an order placed today, with the backlog of existing orders, I have no idea.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
http://ecointalk.net/topic/558-refunds/

Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:59 PM
Dear customers,
 
We are not able to refund everyone that has requested this at the moment. Because of the compensation plan for batch 1 customers, and the discount given on the orders we have tight budget for the first productions. If we would refund all request immediately this would interfere with the production and we can't put the other customers at a disadvantage. The refunds will have to wait until more orders have been placed and more funds are available.  We hope you understand our situation.
 
Sincerely,
 
The Black Arrow Team
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So those refunds are not looking so good. 

And if you've asked for refund and they can't/won't give it, your order is what?  cancelled?  in limbo?  delivered anyway? 

what a total mess. my mental running odds on actually getting one of these at all has dropped to 65%. 

legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 1012
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.

Yea bfl is totally putting BA to shame..

A $5000 monarch has gone from 600gh -> 1000gh

Where as a $4000 prospero has gone from 2000gh -> 2900gh


Jimmothy, I have not bothered you or your comments on BA this entire time.  I have seen your input as valid and have even taken to heart some of the things that you have said.  And yet you come out attacking everyone no matter what.

A prospero is ~$6,000 first of all, BA is giving their "compensation" package to everyone, not just those who paid at the very first price.  Also the $5000 monarch is going from 600 GH to 1.6 TH, please understand the full package before trying to refute.
Hopefully the 2.9 TH/s will be able to be run at a home, given the high power consumption running at that level, it will be a stretch to fit one of the X-3 boxes on a circuit.
BFL is actually giving the hardware to their customers whereas I get cloud mining that I cannot even resell when it becomes (if not already shipped as) worthless.
BFL is delaying 5 weeks, BA is delaying 8 weeks.  (I understand this may change based on companies pasts, but for now that's what we have to go on, all biases aside).  I am sure I do not have to tell you how precious 3 weeks can be in the mining world, unless you are BA and do not care about your customers interests in making a profit because all you do is manufacture mining equipment.

I thought BA compensation was only for batch 1 orders.

Bfl is not delaying 5 weeks. They promised delivery of every month since november. They will not ship in 5 weeks or even 2 months.

Anyways the 250% compensation is only for the earliest orders for a monarch and comparing it to the earliest orders of a prospero it is still lacking.

My point is that because they ripped off their customers so much, they can afford to give a better compensation.

I too wish we could get double the hashrate for compensation but that would mean we would be getting hardware for around $1/gh and BA couldn't afford it. Asicminer gen3 chips alone will be $1/gh


I'm leaning more towards yes they can afford to do better than what they have put forward, although without seeing their accounting records, there's no way of knowing that, so we're both speculating.

This product is an early mover in a market without fully developed competitive forces, launched at a time of high demand.  Based on normal market theory, this is the time at which profit margins are highest.

KnC is giving equivalent hash power until their customers get a unit, and yes I know their units are more expensive.  Cointerra reportedly gave their Batch 1 customers a free extra Terraminer IV for their difficulties and have stated in clear language that if anyone wants out, they'll issue a refund.

Black Arrow is operating in the same marketplace and, while these others can take these steps we're supposed to believe BA is unable, although they are arguably operating in the most low cost manufacturing location of the three.  I simply don't believe that this is the best they can do.  It's an opinion, of course, although it's based on some knowledge of market theory and the actions of their direct competitors, which seemingly tells a different story.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.

And for those who are going to say, "they aren't their competitors" or, "just cause they can do it, doesn't mean BA can" I have say, well then why can't we hold them responsible for missing their deadlines.  Everyone else's argument has been, well every other company has been late so BA can be to, well every other company can provide adequate compensation plans, why can't BA?

Just thought I should put that out there before a BA shill comes along and tries to refute.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.

Yea bfl is totally putting BA to shame..

A $5000 monarch has gone from 600gh -> 1000gh

Where as a $4000 prospero has gone from 2000gh -> 2900gh


Jimmothy, I have not bothered you or your comments on BA this entire time.  I have seen your input as valid and have even taken to heart some of the things that you have said.  And yet you come out attacking everyone no matter what.

A prospero is ~$6,000 first of all, BA is giving their "compensation" package to everyone, not just those who paid at the very first price.  Also the $5000 monarch is going from 600 GH to 1.6 TH, please understand the full package before trying to refute.
Hopefully the 2.9 TH/s will be able to be run at a home, given the high power consumption running at that level, it will be a stretch to fit one of the X-3 boxes on a circuit.
BFL is actually giving the hardware to their customers whereas I get cloud mining that I cannot even resell when it becomes (if not already shipped as) worthless.
BFL is delaying 5 weeks, BA is delaying 8 weeks.  (I understand this may change based on companies pasts, but for now that's what we have to go on, all biases aside).  I am sure I do not have to tell you how precious 3 weeks can be in the mining world, unless you are BA and do not care about your customers interests in making a profit because all you do is manufacture mining equipment.

I thought BA compensation was only for batch 1 orders.

Bfl is not delaying 5 weeks. They promised delivery of every month since november. They will not ship in 5 weeks or even 2 months.

Anyways the 250% compensation is only for the earliest orders for a monarch and comparing it to the earliest orders of a prospero it is still lacking.

My point is that because they ripped off their customers so much, they can afford to give a better compensation.

I too wish we could get double the hashrate for compensation but that would mean we would be getting hardware for around $1/gh and BA couldn't afford it. Asicminer gen3 chips alone will be $1/gh


I'm leaning more towards yes they can afford to do better than what they have put forward, although without seeing their accounting records, there's no way of knowing that, so we're both speculating.

This product is an early mover in a market without fully developed competitive forces, launched at a time of high demand.  Based on normal market theory, this is the time at which profit margins are highest.

KnC is giving equivalent hash power until their customers get a unit, and yes I know their units are more expensive.  Cointerra reportedly gave their Batch 1 customers a free extra Terraminer IV for their difficulties and have stated in clear language that if anyone wants out, they'll issue a refund.

Black Arrow is operating in the same marketplace and, while these others can take these steps we're supposed to believe BA is unable, although they are arguably operating in the most low cost manufacturing location of the three.  I simply don't believe that this is the best they can do.  It's an opinion, of course, although it's based on some knowledge of market theory and the actions of their direct competitors, which seemingly tells a different story.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Are you like these guys?

It's completely unconfirmed at this stage but there are rumours that the initial heat sink design was so low tech that it had to be abandoned and repurposed for use with Raspberry Pi:

http://www.banggood.com/Copper-Heatsink-Cooling-Kit-Easy-Install-For-Raspberry-Pi-p-89475.html

Hard to say, but it really looks like the heat sink was made by a child using a hacksaw blade  Huh

It's difficult to figure out how that took six months to 'design'  Shocked

I suppose there is one advantage in that you can just rip the copper heat sink off when you're finished  Cheesy





hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Are you like these guys?

So is there any real life pictures of any chips or pcb boards or anything yet !!! Or just fake ass cgi pictures that posted on there website !! LoL what a joke !! Please correct me if im wrong would love to see some pictures ...


Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Cheesy

Nobody has any idea, even Black Adder don't have a clue what is happening. Seems they took six months to 'design' a heat sink.


!! LoL what a joke !!


You can say that again Wink



hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Because the database has been a gigantic pain in the ass. I have 2 programmers working on it, and if they dont have a solution by friday I will be making them do it by hand.
So will this be done manually? ETA?

Bump
Bump.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 1012
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.

Yea bfl is totally putting BA to shame..

A $5000 monarch has gone from 600gh -> 1000gh

Where as a $4000 prospero has gone from 2000gh -> 2900gh


Jimmothy, I have not bothered you or your comments on BA this entire time.  I have seen your input as valid and have even taken to heart some of the things that you have said.  And yet you come out attacking everyone no matter what.

A prospero is ~$6,000 first of all, BA is giving their "compensation" package to everyone, not just those who paid at the very first price.  Also the $5000 monarch is going from 600 GH to 1.6 TH, please understand the full package before trying to refute.
Hopefully the 2.9 TH/s will be able to be run at a home, given the high power consumption running at that level, it will be a stretch to fit one of the X-3 boxes on a circuit.
BFL is actually giving the hardware to their customers whereas I get cloud mining that I cannot even resell when it becomes (if not already shipped as) worthless.
BFL is delaying 5 weeks, BA is delaying 8 weeks.  (I understand this may change based on companies pasts, but for now that's what we have to go on, all biases aside).  I am sure I do not have to tell you how precious 3 weeks can be in the mining world, unless you are BA and do not care about your customers interests in making a profit because all you do is manufacture mining equipment.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Well, I cancelled and got a full refund (minus 20 dollars) from Minersource, was pretty quick and painless.

Lucky for you..........

I've been dealing with Matt @ Minersource for 2.5 weeks...
Now that my order has been canceled.  Still no refund yet.

At one point, I got an email that wire is on my way (which I never received).
It was $49 off what I paid for my order.

Sad

This is exactly what I'm concerned about, cancelling but ending up with both no order spot and no money back.



Yep, and this is why people have been asking for a clear statement on refunds since they announced this delay.

They still haven't made an unequivocal statement as far as I know.  Yet another shining example of their commitment to their customers.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.


I know it.  Boo hoo, we're so broke, this is the best we can do.  Bull-oney.

Nobody buys from the company that trails in supporting their customers' bottom line in a financially oriented business, which this is, as much as they'd like to spin it otherwise.  

Total fail on the most important aspect of the entire business relationship.  

legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 1012
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
@Phinnaeus Gage

Thread is tl;dr, but minersource address via "contact us" on website is a UPS store.  Definitely pre-ordering from their page /s

I noticed the same thing. When I was considering a purchase, but I decided not to after finding that. 

Yup thats our mail forwarding box.
What do you need a mail forwarding box for? Is your company official?

OBFUSCATION
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Are you like these guys?
I sell my Batch 1 order (1 prospero x-3) with the compensation. Details --> http://ecointalk.net/topic/560-i-sell-my-order-n-322x-1-prospero-x-3/

Wait, what?

Compensation plan?

You mean you believed the "25% virtual hashing" that will allegedly be provided in lieu of delivery of the actual products you ordered and paid for?

This is what's been called the "75% scam" which is a more accurate description as you're losing 75% of the hashing that you anticipated.

 Lips sealed





hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Are you like these guys?
Seriously oleole what are you so butthurt about?

Is there something bothering you that you'd like to talk about?


I hadn't heard from you for a while, Jimmothy, so I thought I'd give you an in.  So what's the latest pro-BA spin? You seem to be training your new fanboi friends well, they're chiming in on cue with you, perhaps they can give us a heads up on the refund situation?

Tell me, are you enjoying the product delays and the sheer lack of professionalism?

How about the custom heat sink, does that make you glow with satisfaction?  I heard that the heat sinks get so hot that you fry a monkey's head on them... that's another bonus that you only get with vapourware ASICS, you can make-believe anything about the product, fake a few renders and the fanbois obfuscate things further.

Hit me up when you get your delivery, I'll be the first to congratulate you on your patience.

 Smiley






hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Are you like these guys?
Bitcoin Miners progress update – 05 March 2014


1.Global Foundries has informed us that Minion wafer manufacture is starting tomorrow. This is 1 week ahead of schedule, therefore we’ve recovered the 3 days delay in tapeout and we’re 4 days ahead of schedule.
2.We have completed the minion substrate package design
3.Received confirmation that probe card wafers will be completed next week and sent to packaging house
4.X1 backplane size was corrected and re-sent to the factory
5.Completed re-design of the X3 hash board, pending review
6.We have visited the heatsink factory, approved the X1 & X3 heatsink design and have started the moulds.
7.We have met with power supply factory representatives and have signed the final documents to start the manufacturing
8.X3 case review came back from the case factory, we still need to address some minor details for improved performance
9.Completed thermal simulations for X3 case, now running thermal simulations for X1 case
10.Completed CS-CART payment processor for LTC, BTC and PPC, pending final review to get it online

http://ecointalk.net/topic/259-heatsink-samples-have-arrived/?p=345

Quote
Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:23 PM

We have received the samples for the Proxpero X3 heatsinks.
 
http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/7-prospero-heatsink-samples/

Somebody quote me before fuzznuts deletes this post.

Still blows my mind that Global Foundries hasn't gotten back to us yet after asking a simple non-NDA question: Does Black Arrow have a contract with Global Foundries to produce a 28nm chip?

A large company like Verisilicon had no problem with replying within...wait for it...12 hours after first being asked. Then a follow up letter. Then another.




I know.

The heatsink was the one thing I thought was actually done.  Pics and everything up on FB.  Now it's not either.

It's like watching a troupe of monkeys and a mynah bird build a fucking computer....




LMAO!  Grin Yeah where are the all-singing, all-dancing Black Adder fanboi club when they're needed? Maybe they can help re-light the candles when they blow out or chase the monkeys back to the sandbox where the management are busy faking images of the renders while eating the monkey's bananas?

It's about time we had another fake render image or maybe even show us a prototype (there's a good word for you Black Adder) of the magical heat sink that took six months to design?

Quote - "1.Global Foundries has informed us that Minion wafer manufacture is starting tomorrow. This is 1 week ahead of schedule, therefore we’ve recovered the 3 days delay in tapeout and we’re 4 days ahead of schedule."

So does this include or not include the one week delay of the Chinese New Year that you supposedly had covered?

War is peace, black is white, renders are real, delays are ahead of schedule, words produce ASICS.

Glad that's all be cleared up then Huh ?!?

 Undecided



hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Bitcoin Miners progress update – 05 March 2014


1.Global Foundries has informed us that Minion wafer manufacture is starting tomorrow. This is 1 week ahead of schedule, therefore we’ve recovered the 3 days delay in tapeout and we’re 4 days ahead of schedule.
2.We have completed the minion substrate package design
3.Received confirmation that probe card wafers will be completed next week and sent to packaging house
4.X1 backplane size was corrected and re-sent to the factory
5.Completed re-design of the X3 hash board, pending review
6.We have visited the heatsink factory, approved the X1 & X3 heatsink design and have started the moulds.
7.We have met with power supply factory representatives and have signed the final documents to start the manufacturing
8.X3 case review came back from the case factory, we still need to address some minor details for improved performance
9.Completed thermal simulations for X3 case, now running thermal simulations for X1 case
10.Completed CS-CART payment processor for LTC, BTC and PPC, pending final review to get it online

http://ecointalk.net/topic/259-heatsink-samples-have-arrived/?p=345

Quote
Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:23 PM

We have received the samples for the Proxpero X3 heatsinks.
 
http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/7-prospero-heatsink-samples/

Somebody quote me before fuzznuts deletes this post.

Still blows my mind that Global Foundries hasn't gotten back to us yet after asking a simple non-NDA question: Does Black Arrow have a contract with Global Foundries to produce a 28nm chip?

A large company like Verisilicon had no problem with replying within...wait for it...12 hours after first being asked. Then a follow up letter. Then another.




I know.

The heatsink was the one thing I thought was actually done.  Pics and everything up on FB.  Now it's not either.

It's like watching a troupe of monkeys and a mynah bird build a fucking computer....
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Because the database has been a gigantic pain in the ass. I have 2 programmers working on it, and if they dont have a solution by friday I will be making them do it by hand.
So will this be done manually? ETA?

Bump
Bump.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Quote
-All the previous board designs and case designs, and heatsink designs, and fan designs, and power supply designs, and internal arrangement designs were wrong and are being changed.


We take the extra time to make them better. We could have delivered a working version by now but we decided not to sleep on it.

Basically, starting from scratch.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Bitcoin Miners progress update – 05 March 2014


1.Global Foundries has informed us that Minion wafer manufacture is starting tomorrow. This is 1 week ahead of schedule, therefore we’ve recovered the 3 days delay in tapeout and we’re 4 days ahead of schedule.
2.We have completed the minion substrate package design
3.Received confirmation that probe card wafers will be completed next week and sent to packaging house
4.X1 backplane size was corrected and re-sent to the factory
5.Completed re-design of the X3 hash board, pending review
6.We have visited the heatsink factory, approved the X1 & X3 heatsink design and have started the moulds.
7.We have met with power supply factory representatives and have signed the final documents to start the manufacturing
8.X3 case review came back from the case factory, we still need to address some minor details for improved performance
9.Completed thermal simulations for X3 case, now running thermal simulations for X1 case
10.Completed CS-CART payment processor for LTC, BTC and PPC, pending final review to get it online

http://ecointalk.net/topic/259-heatsink-samples-have-arrived/?p=345

Quote
Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:23 PM

We have received the samples for the Proxpero X3 heatsinks.
 
http://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/7-prospero-heatsink-samples/

Somebody quote me before fuzznuts deletes this post.

Still blows my mind that Global Foundries hasn't gotten back to us yet after asking a simple non-NDA question: Does Black Arrow have a contract with Global Foundries to produce a 28nm chip?

A large company like Verisilicon had no problem with replying within...wait for it...12 hours after first being asked. Then a follow up letter. Then another.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
What makes you think Global Foundries owes anyone but their customers any information on what they are presently engaging in? I'm sure their inbox is inundated with spam from folks who have nothing better than to troll around forums and speculate about what influences the bitcoin mining scene.

If anything they will not comment to an unknown source as it may not be in their customers interest and a complete waste of their time. Put things into perspective and rationalize what is going on in a greater sense before trying to use something which is logical as evidenced to support your own conspiracy theories.

Great argument! But how do you explain Verisilicon replying when not once, not twice, but three times they were asked if Black Arrow was one of their customers with an affirmative? The exact same argument applies here.

What is being asked is in no way NDA related.


What is clear is that greed has made typically rational people do irrational things and put their hard earned money on nothing more than the promise of magic beans. Not just here but across the mining hardware spectrum they've laid down their bet with so many variables in place that they have exposed themselves to 100% risk. What I see mostly is people subsequently attempting to fight their way back to a rational point in a situation which they themselves assisted in the creation of.

BA may have a very competitive ASIC in the end when all the dust settles and people will no longer pay gold for silicone. Unfortunately turning those magical beans into capitalizing on the arms race doesn't appear as attractive with the release date.


Some true some not.  Any investment can be assessed this way I suppose.

While delays in these sorts of equipment is common, we all know the horror stories of BFL, Hashfast etc., what is also true with the advent of these higher end Th/s+ systems are 2 things.

1.  They cost a shitload of money.  This isn't a few hundred or a thousand dollars a pop, it's ~6 grand for the X3 and for the Cointerra Terraminer, not to mention the price on the KnC, which I think is like 13K @ 3Th/s, so this isn't a small investment that people can simply write off to having a bit of fun, nor are they going to be happy when the company fails to deliver on time and costs them thousands of dollars as a result.

2.  Cointerra and KnC have stepped up and changed this 100% risk paradigm by putting forward what seems to be more equitable compensation for their Batch 1 customers on these delays.  Black Arrow has not followed their lead, but has apparently opted instead to float a package that doesn't seemingly come close to compensating people, claiming it's the best they can do, and is still murky on refunds for those that want them.   The bitching is at least partially fueled by the perception that these other companies are doing whatever necessary to assure their customers don't get burned, and BA's customers are understandably pissed about what seems at this point to be a relatively raw deal.

ASIC manufacturers need to wake up to the fact that the 100% risk paradigm doesn't work as a business model.  Nobody survives in the long term by screwing their customers while their competitors do not, especially as the market develops and people have options and better information about the players in the marketplace.  Some of the others seemingly have realized this, and it is those people that get my money next time.
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