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Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 116. (Read 387551 times)

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
August 02, 2014, 10:25:04 AM
In other news, Cloak's Proof-of-Stake-Anonymity has apparently solved the Byzantine Generals problem (I thought Bitcoin already solved it): https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8128502

Will you please end this constant pimping of scrofulous flea-ridden whores?  

This is the courtesan channel.  We have standards.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 10:24:40 AM
Este Nuno, fluffypony
If BTC does become the currency standard of trade, there will be little incentive to use any other coin and even less incentive to produce alternates. To give a trivial example, take the little white plastic tables they put in the center of pizzas to keep the cheese off the cardboard box. There are alternatives to it but why use them if the standard works well and doesn't have any glaring defects or economic penalties?

As an aside, I'm glad you decided to soften your response calling me completely unreasonable  Wink
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
August 02, 2014, 10:20:28 AM
I think it's completely unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all other altcoins. It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Many people still question whether Bitcoin itself will end up being the market leader 10, 20 years from now. People are never going to stop trying to innovate in the currency space now that Bitcoin has opened people's imaginations(and wallets).
I agree with yldouright: you are not talking about money, you are talking about assets or standards.

There are some things who welcome competition and use it to promote innovation, while there are other things that are strong aggregators with a positive feedback loop: the more people use a coin the more that coin is useful (same thing happens with social network, for instance).

This will not completely eraticate every altcoin imaginabile, but is a very strong disincentive.


I think that we will definitely see the rise of a handful of cryptocurrencies fit for various purposes. Remember: even in the existence of a global economy, that wouldn't mean that in-game currencies such as those used in WoW or EVE are now redundant and every in-game currency is going to be Bitcoin (or whatever). Similarly, purely on a currency level, altcoins can be used for loyalty point systems. So I don't think we'll see the level of idiotic scammy altcoins we see today once the big shake out has happened in a few years, but that doesn't mean that altcoins will be completely non-existent:)
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 02, 2014, 10:04:48 AM
Este Nuno, kbm
It's not completely unreasonable. The alt-coins dilute the value of the accepted currency. In other words, when they are first created, they have a comparative trade value which over time is either endorsed or abandoned, just like a foreign paper currency on the monetary exchange. When a foreign currency implodes, it drags down the value of all the other currencies because that currency was traded away for realer goods, which raises their relative value against all currencies. We'll use BTC as the example for illustration:
A new crypto-coin is announced, it is mined and exchanged (ie: dumped) for BTC establishing a relationship of relative value. Now, what happens when that alt-coin dies? This is the downward pressure we see in the price of BTC. The closer we move toward a global economy, the closer we move toward a natural monetary monopoly and if the world population decides that crypto-coin will be the preferred medium of exchange, why is it unreasonable to assume that one surviving coin will be it?
I think it's completely unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all other altcoins. It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Many people still question whether Bitcoin itself will end up being the market leader 10, 20 years from now. People are never going to stop trying to innovate in the currency space now that Bitcoin has opened people's imaginations(and wallets).
I agree with yldouright: you are not talking about money, you are talking about assets or standards.

There are some things who welcome competition and use it to promote innovation, while there are other things that are strong aggregators with a positive feedback loop: the more people use a coin the more that coin is useful (same thing happens with social network, for instance).

This will not completely eraticate every altcoin imaginabile, but is a very strong disincentive.


Sure, there will be one dominant form on money in the world in the future. But I don't think we're ever going to see a monopoly happen. There are lots of niche cases that come up and people will always try to fill those needs. Also, people will always try to compete to become the market leader, even if thousands of failed before them. That is as long as the barriers to entry stay as low as they are now.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Bitgoblin
August 02, 2014, 09:47:38 AM
I think it's completely unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all other altcoins. It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Many people still question whether Bitcoin itself will end up being the market leader 10, 20 years from now. People are never going to stop trying to innovate in the currency space now that Bitcoin has opened people's imaginations(and wallets).
I agree with yldouright: you are not talking about money, you are talking about assets or standards.

There are some things who welcome competition and use it to promote innovation, while there are other things that are strong aggregators with a positive feedback loop: the more people use a coin the more that coin is useful (same thing happens with social network, for instance).

This will not completely eraticate every altcoin imaginabile, but is a very strong disincentive.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 09:41:58 AM
Este Nuno, kbm
It's not completely unreasonable. The alt-coins dilute the value of the accepted currency. In other words, when they are first created, they have a comparative trade value which over time is either endorsed or abandoned, just like a foreign paper currency on the monetary exchange. When a foreign currency implodes, it drags down the value of all the other currencies because that currency was traded away for realer goods, which raises their relative value against all currencies. We'll use BTC as the example for illustration:
A new crypto-coin is announced, it is mined and exchanged (ie: dumped) for BTC establishing a relationship of relative value. Now, what happens when that alt-coin dies? This is the downward pressure we see in the price of BTC. The closer we move toward a global economy, the closer we move toward a natural monetary monopoly and if the world population decides that crypto-coin will be the preferred medium of exchange, why is it unreasonable to assume that one surviving coin will be it?
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 02, 2014, 08:41:53 AM
If we logically assess the conclusion of a global crypto-currency, it seems to point to a one coin scenario. The vast majority of pundits are on the record stating BTC will be that coin. When we consider the potential problems and destructive effects of value with merged mining, it is not unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all the other altcoins. In fact, there are very few alt-coins exhibiting healthy charts and the number of dead and nearly dead crypto is growing. Still, you have some investors willing to take that chance, note the link below:
Primecoin [XPM] is being purchased here.

I think it's completely unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all other altcoins. It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Many people still question whether Bitcoin itself will end up being the market leader 10, 20 years from now. People are never going to stop trying to innovate in the currency space now that Bitcoin has opened people's imaginations(and wallets).
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
August 02, 2014, 08:34:02 AM
In other news, Cloak's Proof-of-Stake-Anonymity has apparently solved the Byzantine Generals problem (I thought Bitcoin already solved it): https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8128502
kbm
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 08:29:03 AM
If we logically assess the conclusion of a global crypto-currency, it seems to point to a one coin scenario.

Why would you think that? There's so many different fiat varieties of money like USD, EUR, CNY etc... Theres so many different varieties of hard-metal currencies like gold, silver, etc... There's visa, mastercard, discover, wells fargo, for credit-type currencies (granted these are denominated in fiat values). There's paypal too. Point is .. of the thousands of ways to pay someone with something that have already manifested in 2014, what could possibly make you think (logically) that there will be one currency past that?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 08:19:25 AM
If we logically assess the conclusion of a global crypto-currency, it seems to point to a one coin scenario. The vast majority of pundits are on the record stating BTC will be that coin. When we consider the potential problems and destructive effects of value with merged mining, it is not unreasonable to assume the eventual demise of all the other altcoins. In fact, there are very few alt-coins exhibiting healthy charts and the number of dead and nearly dead crypto is growing. Still, you have some investors willing to take that chance, note the link below:
Primecoin [XPM] is being purchased here.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
August 02, 2014, 08:07:39 AM
So I guess we'll just have to wait for the perfect coin to appear - Cryptonite fork (mini-blockchain) with proven PoW (maybe Cuckoo Cycle when it gets an optimized miner) and anonymity features. Imagine the amount of miners jumping in with both feet and hands. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 02, 2014, 07:56:11 AM
I tossed two CPUs on it for the entire day and got 0 on the second day from my recollection.  This has been my experience for virtually every CPU coin ever launched.  Can just go and read the Cryptonite thread right now and see the same thing repeating itself.  People with 30 CPUs getting 0 coins.

Sorry, I forgot to specify I was referring to Monero, not cryptonite (are we both talking about Monero here?). Cryptonite I didn't even bother mining, been busy Sad. If I ever want that one I guess I'll have to just buy it, unless something funky comes up. It looks like it has some interest from a lot of people here. I think I'm going to try it out today to see how it works, but it looks like the solo-mining window is out of reach now (for me), plus I'm still undecided if I like it. It has had a lot of recognition from the first block. It's crazy that 30 CPU's dont even get one block though, do you think someone's already made a GPU miner for it?

I might have some logs that can help me remember on at least the celeron/pentium HDD's for what I mined with Monero.

My sweet 6 core/12 thread i7 cracked several XMR blocks solo, and has got one XCN block too. 

XCN diff rose much more quickly, because it was obvious to those in the know that its mini-blockchains are the perfect complement to XMR's ring sig bloated maxi-blockchain.  Everyone who missed out on (or thoroughly enjoyed) the XMR moon rocket jumped in the XCN pool with both feet.

Speaking of pools, I would be happy to provide a few beefy VPS to anyone wishing to take a crack at getting the XCN pool code running (for public benefit):

Very simple pool software has been developed for anyone wanting to start a pool.

https://github.com/MiniblockchainProject/SimplePool

Requires the latest minerd and wallet code. Pool has a hard limit of about 8000 core connection in current implementation, corresponding to 16k getwork request/second. Updates to minerd would change this 8000 machine connections. Pool just writes share info out to a log file. Parsing thing for payments is up to you. The hard part of that is checking for orphans. Tested insofar that shares are being generated and checked inside of wallet. Have not managed to mine a block with it yet.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
August 02, 2014, 07:52:59 AM
Cryptonite is a Very Big Deal, representing the third great innovation in cryptocash (minichains) after Bitcoin's blockchain and CryptoNote's ring signatures.  Vertcoin's private addresses come close to making the list, in a distant fourth place.  Proof-of-work may have been a candidate for fifth, but is made obsolete by minichains, so it loses to Primecoin's cool/trippy factor.

Forget those other trash coins.  All that matter right now are Bitcoin, Monero, and Cryptonite.  

(Litecoin is also valuable as a hot-swappable replacement in case Bitcoin breaks, ditto Namecoin and DNS.)

It's fascinating how Monero and Cryptonite are fundamentally incompatible and splitting Bitcoin into private Monero and public Cryptonite niches, like a speciation event!

Economically it makes perfect sense to remove Bitcoin's blockchain bloat to be more efficient for public transactions, while simultaneously putting other bloat to work by ensuring privacy for Monero.

As I finish this post CN is nearing an ATH.  Nice.  

Now just wait until all the kids realize they've been conned by their closed source and/or kludgey CLOAK/DARK/BLACK/XC FailCoins.  See ya'll on the moon...

Any other opinions on cryptonite?

I have to admit that I share icebreakers point of view - that said, xcn is very young, buggy, quite expensive already. compared to other coins it offers something new which indeed has value and potential, but I also think that bitcoin can simply clone miniblockchains once they are proven (non-technical perspective). this is the beauty of xmr, there is quite a big niche which probably will never be filled by bitcoin.

XCN is young and expensive, but I haven't seen any bugs yet.  It was tested for over a month prior to release.  My node is totally stable.

Bitcoin cannot "simply" clone minichains any more than other forms of hardfork.  Minichains are unproven and untested; the market demands Bitcoin evolve in a very conservative manner.  There is too much money at stake for a consensus to hardfork to emerge for any reason, except to fix emergent bugs/vulnerabilities.

For all intents and purposes, experimentation and innovation are confined to the altcoins by practical and theoretical reasons.

I am very pleased by the emerging symbiosis between BTC, XCN, and XMR.  BTC preserves wealth, while XCN makes public transactions very cheap and keeps them off XMR, where blockchain real estate is priced at a premium because it provides absolute privacy.

All the arguments for XMR's blockchain not being a huge issue apply much more for BTC. I don't really feel that the size of the BTC blockchain is a major issue, or is ever going to be. If/When they raise the 1MB limit for blocks it gets potentially more serious. But I still tend to agree with what the XMR devs have argued in this thread before, that a 1TB+ blockchain isn't going to cripple a currency.

So I don't know if people are really going to care enough to use XCN to keep transactions off the BTC chain.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
August 02, 2014, 07:52:50 AM
I definitely would not say that.  The botnet problem is understated if anything.

I was there for Monero launch on the first or second day and got 0 coins mining with two CPUs.  There's just too much CPU power out there for really any CPU coin to be considered "fair" in the current environment.  Same thing happened with that Cryptonite coin.  Some guy posting about how he mined with 30 CPUs on the second day and got 0 coins.  I mean come on, just how many CPUs is one supposed to own to be able to mine a CPU coin?  These things are just charity events for botnets at the moment.

That's weird that our experiences are so different. I was using one i7 processor and got (>>10, <50) blocks with it the first week. Second week I threw about 4 more computers on it, with miserable processors (celerons/pentiums), leaving me with >50, <120 blocks mined after week 2 IIRC. After that, there wasn't much notable solo mining.

Same here - when I managed to get the blockchain downloaded and solo mining to work April 27th or so (10 days after launch) I told othe I mined 17 XMR in 9 hours on a Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v3 @ 3.40GHz. At the time the daemon could do around 10h/s - 11h/s on that Xeon and about 33h/s on an Amazon c3.8xlarge slice, and net hash was around 7000h/s. To put that in real numbers, you'd have needed like 212 of those c3.8xlarge slices to control the entire network. If memory serves, you can fire 50 of them up with the standard EC2 account restrictions (5 in each zone). So I see no evidence of early botnet mining, and this was 10 days after launch.
kbm
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 07:42:17 AM
I tossed two CPUs on it for the entire day and got 0 on the second day from my recollection.  This has been my experience for virtually every CPU coin ever launched.  Can just go and read the Cryptonite thread right now and see the same thing repeating itself.  People with 30 CPUs getting 0 coins.

Sorry, I forgot to specify I was referring to Monero, not cryptonite (are we both talking about Monero here?). Cryptonite I didn't even bother mining, been busy Sad. If I ever want that one I guess I'll have to just buy it, unless something funky comes up. It looks like it has some interest from a lot of people here. I think I'm going to try it out today to see how it works, but it looks like the solo-mining window is out of reach now (for me), plus I'm still undecided if I like it. It has had a lot of recognition from the first block. It's crazy that 30 CPU's dont even get one block though, do you think someone's already made a GPU miner for it?

I might have some logs that can help me remember on at least the celeron/pentium HDD's for what I mined with Monero.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 02, 2014, 07:38:07 AM
Cryptonite is a Very Big Deal, representing the third great innovation in cryptocash (minichains) after Bitcoin's blockchain and CryptoNote's ring signatures.  Vertcoin's private addresses come close to making the list, in a distant fourth place.  Proof-of-work may have been a candidate for fifth, but is made obsolete by minichains, so it loses to Primecoin's cool/trippy factor.

Forget those other trash coins.  All that matter right now are Bitcoin, Monero, and Cryptonite. 

(Litecoin is also valuable as a hot-swappable replacement in case Bitcoin breaks, ditto Namecoin and DNS.)

It's fascinating how Monero and Cryptonite are fundamentally incompatible and splitting Bitcoin into private Monero and public Cryptonite niches, like a speciation event!

Economically it makes perfect sense to remove Bitcoin's blockchain bloat to be more efficient for public transactions, while simultaneously putting other bloat to work by ensuring privacy for Monero.

As I finish this post CN is nearing an ATH.  Nice. 

Now just wait until all the kids realize they've been conned by their closed source and/or kludgey CLOAK/DARK/BLACK/XC FailCoins.  See ya'll on the moon...

Any other opinions on cryptonite?

I have to admit that I share icebreakers point of view - that said, xcn is very young, buggy, quite expensive already. compared to other coins it offers something new which indeed has value and potential, but I also think that bitcoin can simply clone miniblockchains once they are proven (non-technical perspective). this is the beauty of xmr, there is quite a big niche which probably will never be filled by bitcoin.

XCN is young and expensive, but I haven't seen any bugs yet.  It was tested for over a month prior to release.  My node is totally stable.

Bitcoin cannot "simply" clone minichains any more than other forms of hardfork.  Minichains are unproven and untested; the market demands Bitcoin evolve in a very conservative manner.  There is too much money at stake for a consensus to hardfork to emerge for any reason, except to fix emergent bugs/vulnerabilities.

For all intents and purposes, experimentation and innovation are confined to the altcoins by practical and theoretical reasons.

I am very pleased by the emerging symbiosis between BTC, XCN, and XMR.  BTC preserves wealth, while XCN makes public transactions very cheap and keeps them off XMR, where blockchain real estate is priced at a premium because it provides absolute privacy.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
August 02, 2014, 07:21:33 AM
I definitely would not say that.  The botnet problem is understated if anything.

I was there for Monero launch on the first or second day and got 0 coins mining with two CPUs.  There's just too much CPU power out there for really any CPU coin to be considered "fair" in the current environment.  Same thing happened with that Cryptonite coin.  Some guy posting about how he mined with 30 CPUs on the second day and got 0 coins.  I mean come on, just how many CPUs is one supposed to own to be able to mine a CPU coin?  These things are just charity events for botnets at the moment.

That's weird that our experiences are so different. I was using one i7 processor and got (>>10, <50) blocks with it the first week. Second week I threw about 4 more computers on it, with miserable processors (celerons/pentiums), leaving me with >50, <120 blocks mined after week 2 IIRC. After that, there wasn't much notable solo mining.

I tossed two CPUs on it for the entire day and got 0 on the second day from my recollection.  This has been my experience for virtually every CPU coin ever launched.  Can just go and read the Cryptonite thread right now and see the same thing repeating itself.  People with 30 CPUs getting 0 coins.
kbm
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
August 02, 2014, 07:17:39 AM
I definitely would not say that.  The botnet problem is understated if anything.

I was there for Monero launch on the first or second day and got 0 coins mining with two CPUs.  There's just too much CPU power out there for really any CPU coin to be considered "fair" in the current environment.  Same thing happened with that Cryptonite coin.  Some guy posting about how he mined with 30 CPUs on the second day and got 0 coins.  I mean come on, just how many CPUs is one supposed to own to be able to mine a CPU coin?  These things are just charity events for botnets at the moment.

That's weird that our experiences are so different. I was using one i7 processor and got (>>10, <50) blocks with it the first week. Second week I threw about 4 more computers on it, with miserable processors (celerons/pentiums), leaving me with >50, <120 blocks mined after week 2 IIRC. After that, there wasn't much notable solo mining.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
August 02, 2014, 07:09:10 AM
Yes.  Monero had one of the most fair launches of any coin.

I definitely would not say that.  The botnet problem is understated if anything.

I was there for Monero launch on the first or second day and got 0 coins mining with two CPUs.  There's just too much CPU power out there for really any CPU coin to be considered "fair" in the current environment.  Same thing happened with that Cryptonite coin.  Some guy posting about how he mined with 30 CPUs on the second day and got 0 coins.  I mean come on, just how many CPUs is one supposed to own to be able to mine a CPU coin?  These things are just charity events for botnets at the moment.

I've mined tons of GPU coins at launch before and even if you only put a single GPU on them, you would still probably get a block.  Thirty CPUs and no block for Cryptonite launch just indicates an invalid mining scheme.  Botnet resources are just far too high for low market cap coins.  It would be much less of a problem for a coin with a large market cap, but all this tells you is that it's completely pointless to launch an "altcoin" utilizing CPU mining instead of GPU.
newbie
Activity: 16
Merit: 0
August 02, 2014, 06:33:29 AM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.
So BCN devs could have mined Monero faster. But BCN devs do not appear to care for Monero. Do you have anything that strongly indicates BCN devs mined Monero back then?

If somebody who was not involved in the creation of the hash function optimized it, the fact that it was intentionally crippled instead of accidentally crippled does not matter for fairness.
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