Author

Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 119. (Read 387493 times)

hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
August 01, 2014, 05:22:24 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

Please quantify this advantage in terms of % of the eventual coin supply of 18.4 million.

Advantage after 20 yrs or so is not relevant to defining a fair launch. Fair launch is used to describe multiple factors during the first few days/week/months of a coins existence.


Please answer the question. I am not here to argue, but to quantify the unfairness against that of other coins.

Fluffy demonstrated already that none of the current dev team were even involved with the coin when it was already trading in an organized way in the OTC. So any unfairness in mining can be quantified by:

%reduction of cost * %of network * daily supply * #of days.

This works out to a meager percentage of total coins, with even more meager value. The value is important because the coin was trading when all (supposed) unfairness happened, so to gain an equal footing with the unfair person, you only needed to buy the coins at the then (low) price.

Is it also unfair that I have bought a large stash of coins with the money that I unfairly earned with BTC, and prior to that, silver, and prior to that, working hard in the fields?

I will answer your questions once we are done discussing fair launch.

To their credit, the Monero devs found and released the fix to crippled hash function early. But it was there at launch.

Even though the amount involved is small in the big picture, and the current devs were unaware, the crippled hash function does effect fari-launch status.  

If we take a step back, you said your definition of fair launch is:


1. No premine, instamine or ninjamine.
2. Exchange as soon as possible.
3. Marketing as soon as possible.


Do we agree that intentionally crippled hash functions do not belong on your list?
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
August 01, 2014, 05:21:21 PM
Are you kidding me? Ask eizh, tacotime and smooth to post here if they mined from launch or not.

You are nothing but a dumb cheerleader who has forced himself onto this coin as a "core" team member. You are not needed. This coin will be better off without dumb propagandists like you and it will really take off then.

You made the accusation, why don't you provide evidence to support your accusation?

The rest of your diatribe is ridiculous vitriol that attempts to invent political issues where there are none, and speaks to events and people you do not know and thus cannot speak of. Ad hominem attacks on people you don't know have never worked in the history of the Internet, so I'm quite unsure why you imagine it's going to work now.

Do you, inside your mind, think that when you post what you posted that people will come flocking out of the woodwork and go "you're right - that fluffypony is a dumb propagandist and needs to go!" Is that what you believe will happen?

And now that I think about it - why hide behind a pseudonym that's barely a pun? What's the harm in using your own account?

I'm done responding to you. This conversation ends now, from my side.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
August 01, 2014, 05:18:40 PM

You are nothing but a dumb cheerleader who has forced himself onto this coin as a "core" team member. You are not needed. This coin will be better off without dumb propagandists like you and it will really take off then.


You are nothing but a dumb troll who has forced himself onto this thread as a "neutral" observer. You are not needed. This thread will be be better off without dumb trolls like you and it will really be better off then.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
August 01, 2014, 05:12:30 PM
Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.


You are misinformed. You and othe are not really "developers" anyways. You are more marketing and strategy and busy with propaganda. tacotime is the only real developer and quite frankly sad to see him now being involved with this.

Check in BitMonero launch thread. eizh, tacotime, smooth were all there since Block1. Smooth was selling BMR since the beginning and had immenese mining power at his disposal. (Not dissing smooth. You guys keep spreading false propaganda and nowadays outright lies, knowingly or otherwise and dragging some others down with your shit).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annbmr-bitmonero-a-new-coin-based-on-cryptonote-technology-launched-563821

We're not really developers? You know this how? Do you have our CVs lying around? You are not qualified to make the sweeping statements you've made, unless you can qualify it with some sort of tangible evidence.

I never said that we didn't mine Monero at all, but your assertion that we had some sort of magically powerful miner is factually incorrect. Your assumption that smooth was mining Monero en masse is also incorrect. The general consensus among us in those very, very early days was that there was no reason for Monero to exist. Choice quotes from smooth, for instance:

I'm starting to doubt there is really a good reason for this besides people wanting to pump and dump. The original is starting to get more and more traction in the community (beyond what may or may not exist on the darknet). It will be hard for a clone to overcome that lead.

If anything I'd propose a bitcoin spin-off clone instead. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/spin-offs-bootstrap-an-altcoin-with-a-btc-blockchain-based-initial-distribution-563972

eizh, too, also didn't think much of Monero at launch:

I've been mining BCN and I'll support it just because I firmly believe in the need for anonymity, but there would be a tinge of regret that we could've had something better.

That their opinion changed later as the truth of Bytecoin's premine was revealed and Monero progressed only goes to prove that it moved in the right direction.

You are a troll account with a troll nickname spreading troll nonsense with no evidence.

PS. At least eizh doesn't have that tinge of regret right about now:)


Are you kidding me? Ask eizh, tacotime and smooth to post here if they mined from launch or not.

You are nothing but a dumb cheerleader who has forced himself onto this coin as a "core" team member. You are not needed. This coin will be better off without dumb propagandists like you and it will really take off then.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
August 01, 2014, 04:54:52 PM
Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.


You are misinformed. You and othe are not really "developers" anyways. You are more marketing and strategy and busy with propaganda. tacotime is the only real developer and quite frankly sad to see him now being involved with this.

Check in BitMonero launch thread. eizh, tacotime, smooth were all there since Block1. Smooth was selling BMR since the beginning and had immenese mining power at his disposal. (Not dissing smooth. You guys keep spreading false propaganda and nowadays outright lies, knowingly or otherwise and dragging some others down with your shit).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annbmr-bitmonero-a-new-coin-based-on-cryptonote-technology-launched-563821

We're not really developers? You know this how? Do you have our CVs lying around? You are not qualified to make the sweeping statements you've made, unless you can qualify it with some sort of tangible evidence.

I never said that we didn't mine Monero at all, but your assertion that we had some sort of magically powerful miner is factually incorrect. Your assumption that smooth was mining Monero en masse is also incorrect. The general consensus among us in those very, very early days was that there was no reason for Monero to exist. Choice quotes from smooth, for instance:

I'm starting to doubt there is really a good reason for this besides people wanting to pump and dump. The original is starting to get more and more traction in the community (beyond what may or may not exist on the darknet). It will be hard for a clone to overcome that lead.

If anything I'd propose a bitcoin spin-off clone instead. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/spin-offs-bootstrap-an-altcoin-with-a-btc-blockchain-based-initial-distribution-563972

eizh, too, also didn't think much of Monero at launch:

I've been mining BCN and I'll support it just because I firmly believe in the need for anonymity, but there would be a tinge of regret that we could've had something better.

That their opinion changed later as the truth of Bytecoin's premine was revealed and Monero progressed only goes to prove that it moved in the right direction.

You are a troll account with a troll nickname spreading troll nonsense with no evidence.

PS. At least eizh doesn't have that tinge of regret right about now:)
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
August 01, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.


You are misinformed. You and othe are not really "developers" anyways. You are more marketing and strategy and busy with propaganda. tacotime is the only real developer and quite frankly sad to see him now being involved with this.

Check in BitMonero launch thread. eizh, tacotime, smooth were all there since Block1. Smooth was selling BMR since the beginning and had immenese mining power at his disposal. (Not dissing smooth. You guys keep spreading false propaganda and nowadays outright lies, knowingly or otherwise and dragging some others down with your shit).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annbmr-bitmonero-a-new-coin-based-on-cryptonote-technology-launched-563821

donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
August 01, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

Please quantify this advantage in terms of % of the eventual coin supply of 18.4 million.

Advantage after 20 yrs or so is not relevant to defining a fair launch. Fair launch is used to describe multiple factors during the first few days/week/months of a coins existence.


Please answer the question. I am not here to argue, but to quantify the unfairness against that of other coins.

Fluffy demonstrated already that none of the current dev team were even involved with the coin when it was already trading in an organized way in the OTC. So any unfairness in mining can be quantified by:

%reduction of cost * %of network * daily supply * #of days.

This works out to a meager percentage of total coins, with even more meager value. The value is important because the coin was trading when all (supposed) unfairness happened, so to gain an equal footing with the unfair person, you only needed to buy the coins at the then (low) price.

Is it also unfair that I have bought a large stash of coins with the money that I unfairly earned with BTC, and prior to that, silver, and prior to that, working hard in the fields?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 01, 2014, 04:02:40 PM
You're intentionally creating a system where a small number of insiders get an advantage. I'm not saying you can't do it, just don't purport to call such a situation fair. No one forced you to use a crippled hash, a little bit of effort at the start could have prevented this.

I will call such a situation fair.  And I will be correct, because it's 100% organic and natural for a small number of insiders to get an advantage.  Dr. Nakamoto is the prime example of this.  He deserves every Satoshi he mined, not some looting second-hander mewling for more free stuff.

What isn't natural is your utopian idea that everyone can be completely equal, without distinction, and that such an arrangement has sole claim to being "fair."

Quote

    The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.
    —Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
August 01, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
What do you guys think of just using volume as a way of gauging public interest in alts?

Problem is it's hard to watch volume since the data differs. I watch volume on these four sites:
https://coinmarketcap.com/
http://www.cryptocoinrank.com/
http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
http://cryptmarketcap.com/
If you research thoroughly, you'll see that much data is misleading since each of them don't include all exchange data. Some coins have only one (or two) exchanges that are relevant for their trading, and data from other exchanges just muddies the water. I've starting building my own tool to watch emerging coins, but it's just such a hard work to do it properly, and for the time being I'm still doing it manually, believe it or not it's just easier.

Do you have any way of looking at 20 day or 30 day volume statistics?  It's damn near impossible to find anything in table form other than 24 hour stats, which only gauge interest RIGHT NOW. 

I'd like to be able to sort by market cap and 20 or 30 day average volume.  That would, to me, be FAR more valuable in gauging public interest over a period of time.  Those 24 hour spikes and valleys are ridiculous.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
August 01, 2014, 03:52:32 PM
If it was there for the purpose of giving someone an advantage, it really isn't the same thing. Ideally, optimization would not be necessary, because a crippled hash wouldn't be used.

Consider that Monero was launched by thankful_for_today, and inherited the crippled hash function from Bytecoin. None of the 7 members of the Monero core team were involved in the launch, nor did any of us mine it right away.

I looked back at my IRC logs - othe asked me on 2014-04-26 if I'd heard of it, over a week after it had launched. Here's a typical example of our early conversations:


[2014-04-26T14:07:42+0200] cant get boost installed here > 1.5.3
[2014-04-26T14:07:56+0200] I've gotten boost 1.55 installed
[2014-04-26T14:07:58+0200] the problem is
[2014-04-26T14:08:06+0200] when it tries to statically link the executables
[2014-04-26T14:08:12+0200] it isn't linking the boost libs
[2014-04-26T14:13:59+0200] [ 46%] Building CXX object src/CMakeFiles/wallet.dir/wallet/wallet_rpc_server.cpp.o Linking CXX static library libwallet
[2014-04-26T14:14:01+0200] that one?
[2014-04-26T14:14:12+0200] no after that
[2014-04-26T14:14:20+0200] Linking CXX executable simplewallet
[2014-04-26T14:14:22+0200] all of those
[2014-04-26T14:14:25+0200] Linking CXX executable bitmonerod


We couldn't even get it to run properly, much less mine with any sort of magic miner! That very day tacotime, NoodleDoodle, othe, and myself, started talking about it and discussing things like if it could (conceptually) merge-mine with Bitcoin clones and so on (even though othe and I were still struggling to get it to work). The rest, as they say, is history.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
August 01, 2014, 03:48:52 PM
You're intentionally creating a system where a small number of insiders get an advantage. I'm not saying you can't do it, just don't purport to call such a situation fair. No one forced you to use a crippled hash, a little bit of effort at the start could have prevented this.
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
August 01, 2014, 03:45:15 PM
Same thing happened with Boolberry where a guy who has been writing miners for several different algos for years came up with his own GPU miner and used his farms to mine and dump. Like ArtForz back in LTC days. Some clowns who have no knowledge of how to do this will vilify an entire coin because of this instead of coming and contributing to open source opencl mods like Wolf and sbk et al are doing.

These same clowns have no problem that botnet ops are the major mining power behind Monero and say we don't care about the source of mining, we just buy it in the market.

Much hypocrisy. Such Conniving. Very Antagonistic. WOW

Market has far from spoken about the CN coins future. I believe a Boolberry whitepaper is in works and waiting to be reviewed by cryptographers. Technically BBR is ahead of XMR is various aspects but they are not being shoved to users like typical altcoin strategy and I support this approach. XMR has the advantage of being the first launch (discounting Bytecoin completely), so some of the community members jumped on it first. Had zoidberg launched Boolberry first, these same guys would have been touting the technical advantages of BBR. Buy and hold both and don't get swayed by individuals pushing anything on you here.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
August 01, 2014, 03:44:48 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

Please quantify this advantage in terms of % of the eventual coin supply of 18.4 million.

Advantage after 20 yrs or so is not relevant to defining a fair launch. Fair launch is used to describe multiple factors during the first few days/week/months of a coins existence.


80% is mined in the first 4 years.  Is that a good place to start?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 01, 2014, 03:43:02 PM
Great, so those in the know got a massive advantage

Yes, those in the know always have a massive advantage.  That's life; get used to it.

It would be unfair to penalize those in the know for successfully utilizing their talents just to subsidize ignorance, laziness, and avarice.

Inequality of outcome is the most natural thing in the world (entropy and all that).

Equality of opportunity is an amazing innovation that potentially reduces/reverses the misery of Pareto optimality.

Do you support hunting down Satoshi and progressively taxing his stash of easy early coins?

Why not?  Wasn't it "unfair" that he was in the know and had a massive advantage?

Or is it a good thing that he was motivated to give the world Bitcoin perhaps in part by his enormous potential wealth?
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
August 01, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

Please quantify this advantage in terms of % of the eventual coin supply of 18.4 million.

Advantage after 20 yrs or so is not relevant to defining a fair launch. Fair launch is used to describe multiple factors during the first few days/week/months of a coins existence.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
August 01, 2014, 03:27:49 PM
Quote
Great, so those in the know get a massive advantage when it comes to mining.

Are you suggesting no optimzation of open source protocols is allowed?


If it was there for the purpose of giving someone an advantage, it really isn't the same thing. Ideally, optimization would not be necessary, because a crippled hash wouldn't be used.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
August 01, 2014, 03:24:46 PM
Quote
Great, so those in the know get a massive advantage when it comes to mining.

Are you suggesting no optimzation of open source protocols is allowed?

legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
August 01, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
Quote
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

Inherited from Bytecoin, fixed early by noodledoodle.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
August 01, 2014, 03:22:49 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

You are confusing fairness (equality of opportunity) with equality of outcome.  This conceptual error is a basic tenet of the Free Shit Army.

Being able to optimize hash functions is something only a few people can do.

It would be unfair to deny those people the opportunity to profit from their applied knowledge and intelligence.

If you can't optimize functions but want cheap/easy early coins, you need to stop mewling and buy them from someone who can and did.
Great, so those in the know got a massive advantage when it comes to mining. This is different from a premine how?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 01, 2014, 03:20:12 PM
Monero was released with an intentionally crippled hash function. Whether the Monero devs realized it or not, the crippled hash was included to give someone an unfair advantage.

You are confusing fairness (equality of opportunity) with equality of outcome.  This conceptual error is a basic tenet of the Free Shit Army.

Being able to optimize hash functions is something only a few people can do.

It would be unfair to deny those people the opportunity to profit from their applied knowledge and intelligence.

If you can't optimize functions but want cheap/easy early coins, you need to stop mewling and buy them from someone who can and did.
Jump to: