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Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 123. (Read 387493 times)

donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 30, 2014, 09:00:22 AM
I thought that anonymous mining is an all or nothing case, am I missing something?
I mean all nodes should mine the same anonymous way in order to achieve real network anonymity, right?

The blockreward is already anonymous, it pays out-of-band to a stealth address and it's outputs only (ring signatures are only applied to inputs). We're talking about hiding whether you're running a regular node or you're mining (submitting blocks), which means masking your traffic. The upshot is that the added latency caused by submitting your block via i2p means that there's a higher probability of it being orphaned. It's hard to quantify it at this stage, once we are at a point where i2p is on testnet we'll be able to play with scenarios and get some real world results.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
July 30, 2014, 08:09:37 AM

Your comment about anonymous mining has already been responded to by smooth who indicated that mining on i2p will work just fine, but the increased latency would likely lead to a higher orphan rate than mining over TCP. So saying that we "can't" build anonymity into mining when we already have is quite bizarre.
I thought that anonymous mining is an all or nothing case, am I missing something?
I mean all nodes should mine the same anonymous way in order to achieve real network anonymity, right?
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1129
July 30, 2014, 07:59:27 AM
What do you guys think of just using volume as a way of gauging public interest in alts?
I realize it is not perfect, clearly. But it has been nice seeing XMR climb, but we are not alone.

Here is the site I use to see alt volumes: http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
(If you know of any others, please let me know.)

Currently we are the #6 coin. Dark has been falling. But Cloak seems to be extremely strong in volume lately.  It is almost on par with LTC.
I have read not much good about Cloak here, but it is almost the #2 coin and it is an "anonymous" coin as well. Volume is around 1000 BTC.

IAS

In such a speculative market, volume can be quite ephemeral. A coin often trades heavy volume for a few days, or weeks, before slowly falling to oblivion.

Volume trend, together with longer term analysis would be relevant.  eg Using multiday moving averages, similar to stock prices.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1129
July 30, 2014, 07:55:53 AM
Calm yourself, son.

I am likely your elder.

According to information known to me, AnonyMint is 10-20 years older than fluffypony. I think that (as well as his credentials, and pure motives) should increase our respect towards him. Only ignorant people ignore AnonyMint.

Quote
I told you to reign in dga. He reflects badly on your coin.

Freedom of speech is not so easily reigned, and public white- and blacklists of politically correct people sounds like a bad idea.

Fluffypony's response of whitelisting the core team and "let the others speak for themselves only" seems good.

Quote
I would like to have a technical and factual discussion, but instead you want to fucking play this shit. That means fight.

There are technical Monero threads, dev threads and other places for those issues. This thread is for fucking playing this shit, as well as serious tech. And also it does not necessarily mean fight.

Thanks for the interjection...your moderation is skilful.

To paraphrase you, a bit of passion is inevitable, and good, I agree. There is a fine line between discussing specific technicals of alt.coins , and philiosophy of cryptocurrecy generally.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 30, 2014, 07:15:18 AM


I have some blue pills left. You can have them Wink
sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 250
English Motherfucker do you speak it ?
July 30, 2014, 07:14:01 AM





Mr Good Guy Altcoin Investor




sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 250
English Motherfucker do you speak it ?
July 30, 2014, 07:06:39 AM
sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 250
English Motherfucker do you speak it ?
July 30, 2014, 06:55:13 AM
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 30, 2014, 06:51:11 AM

There are technical Monero threads, dev threads and other places for those issues. This thread is for fucking playing this shit, as well as serious tech. And also it does not necessarily mean fight.


Amen. People often blindly underestimate the inherent deficiencies of non-personal conversations. There's a lot of space for misunderstandings, thus misleading conversations off-topic, sometimes getting even unnecessarily offensive. Intelligence ≠ intelligence...

We are here for one purpose, stay focused.
Do crypto, not war.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1077
^ Will code for Bitcoins
July 30, 2014, 06:45:24 AM
What do you guys think of just using volume as a way of gauging public interest in alts?

Problem is it's hard to watch volume since the data differs. I watch volume on these four sites:
https://coinmarketcap.com/
http://www.cryptocoinrank.com/
http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
http://cryptmarketcap.com/
If you research thoroughly, you'll see that much data is misleading since each of them don't include all exchange data. Some coins have only one (or two) exchanges that are relevant for their trading, and data from other exchanges just muddies the water. I've starting building my own tool to watch emerging coins, but it's just such a hard work to do it properly, and for the time being I'm still doing it manually, believe it or not it's just easier.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
July 30, 2014, 06:10:57 AM
What do you guys think of just using volume as a way of gauging public interest in alts?
I realize it is not perfect, clearly. But it has been nice seeing XMR climb, but we are not alone.

Here is the site I use to see alt volumes: http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
(If you know of any others, please let me know.)

Currently we are the #6 coin. Dark has been falling. But Cloak seems to be extremely strong in volume lately.  It is almost on par with LTC.
I have read not much good about Cloak here, but it is almost the #2 coin and it is an "anonymous" coin as well. Volume is around 1000 BTC.

IAS

Cloak is just having its pump, averaging the volumes over a week or so will tell you a different story.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
July 30, 2014, 06:07:52 AM
What do you guys think of just using volume as a way of gauging public interest in alts?
I realize it is not perfect, clearly. But it has been nice seeing XMR climb, but we are not alone.

Here is the site I use to see alt volumes: http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/info
(If you know of any others, please let me know.)

Currently we are the #6 coin. Dark has been falling. But Cloak seems to be extremely strong in volume lately.  It is almost on par with LTC.
I have read not much good about Cloak here, but it is almost the #2 coin and it is an "anonymous" coin as well. Volume is around 1000 BTC.

IAS
hero member
Activity: 976
Merit: 646
July 30, 2014, 05:17:07 AM
I didn't study exactly how he is twiddling each bit to utilize the block hash data to provide the randomization of the lookups in the scratchpad, but I do know he says he eliminated the computation of a hash that would normally take that role. Thus I don't need to look at the source code, to make the statements I have made.

Would you like to be more concrete ?

All Scrypt-like memory hard functions have essentially some variant of the same fundamental algorithm (ignoring the initialization of the memory scratchpad):

Code:
0: i = C, n = N
1: while(--n) i = hash(memory[i]) % pow(2,(sizeof(i)*8))
2: return i

Note some variants write the output of the hash back into the scratchpad, which is important for diminishing the threat of "lookup gap" strategies for trading computation for memory space.

My assumption (based on your description) is that Boolberry's PoW hash is faster because you replace 'hash' with some faster operation that modulates 'memory[ i ]' by data from the block chain, e.g. perhaps an xor operation. That modulation may not be cyptographically secure because that blockchain data may be subject to cryptanalysis and game theory.

Cryptonote's PoW employes AES round in the 'hash' which may not be cyptographically secure.


Dear AnonyMint.
You make wrong assumptions. We added massive memory readings inside the keccak rounds. Not replaced.



UPD: I'll do some analysis. Just need to finish some current critical tasks




donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
July 30, 2014, 05:12:03 AM
Calm yourself, son.

I am likely your elder.

According to information known to me, AnonyMint is 10-20 years older than fluffypony. I think that (as well as his credentials, and pure motives) should increase our respect towards him. Only ignorant people ignore AnonyMint.

Quote
I told you to reign in dga. He reflects badly on your coin.

Freedom of speech is not so easily reigned, and public white- and blacklists of politically correct people sounds like a bad idea.

Fluffypony's response of whitelisting the core team and "let the others speak for themselves only" seems good.

Quote
I would like to have a technical and factual discussion, but instead you want to fucking play this shit. That means fight.

There are technical Monero threads, dev threads and other places for those issues. This thread is for fucking playing this shit, as well as serious tech. And also it does not necessarily mean fight.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 30, 2014, 05:10:26 AM
Anonymint, maybe start your own thread about all this technical talk?

I and every other regular reader does not understand a word of your conversation and consistant spam of posts. They might be important, but please start a new thread, so we can go back to have an altcoin discussion.

It really ruins my reading experience.

Other than the fact that the thread has recently gone in a bad direction I'm a regular reader and I just want to say that I was enjoying it quite a bit before the recent turn.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 30, 2014, 05:08:12 AM
Calm yourself, son.

I am likely your elder. Perhaps you've forgotten what culture was like back in the day. You didn't speak to your elders disrespectfully.

I told you to reign in dga. He reflects badly on your coin. And smooth made a reply upthread in support of Wolf0 at my expense.

You are playing politics right now. You never stop.

I would like to have a technical and factual discussion, but instead you want to fucking play this shit. That means fight.

You only responded, because I just blew away your entire marketing foundation.

Piss off.

I'm in my mid-30s, so you'd do well to flip that statement around.

We have no control over dga, he is not even involved in Monero on a peripheral level. Even if he was involved, there is little we could do to stop him expressing his (certainly valid) technical viewpoints.

There is no fight with you, Mint. There absolutely no desire to fight with you. There is no game. There is no attack. We have nothing but respect for your knowledge, and we have definitely taken heed of some of the valid points you have made. We all have ridiculous amounts of work to do, and arguing is among the least productive things we can do.

You have blown nothing away, although I'm certain you feel it important to think yourself capable of doing so, and I have no problem with you continuing to believe that.

I have said what needed to be said. Neither myself, nor any of the core team members, will continue this conversation thread with you as there is no value in doing so. Feel free to respond and continue to postulate as you will undoubtedly do.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 30, 2014, 04:45:17 AM
Calm yourself, son.

I am likely your elder. Perhaps you've forgotten what culture was like back in the day. You didn't speak to your elders disrespectfully.

I told you to reign in dga. He reflects badly on your coin. And smooth made a reply upthread in support of Wolf0 at my expense.

You are playing politics right now. You never stop.

I would like to have a technical and factual discussion, but instead you want to fucking play this shit. That means fight.

You only responded, because I just blew away your entire marketing foundation.

Piss off.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 30, 2014, 04:16:53 AM
Zoidberg, this is an example of an opportunity that you may have failed to grab in the past. At the moment, if you could do some analysis of the issue I raised and come back with some concrete explanation or improvement made to your PoW, it would show that unlike Monero crapholes, you are open source to valid feedback and do try to stay focused on improvements and not political manipulation.

Grabbing such opportunities is the way you win the community.

And nevermind drawingthesun trying to keep you in second place. There is no reason you have to stay in second place, if you can demonstrate better leadership than Monero has. Monero has to cater to the "least common denominator" (e.g. dga), because they are a political paradigm (open source). They don't have any Benevolent Dictator (e.g. Linus Torvalds) to reign in political distraction and keep everything focused on innovation and substance.

Calm yourself, son. You keep using terms like "your" and "them" when you're replying to people that are not even involved with Monero. You get angry and frustrated at conversations with dga and Wolf0 and others that clearly do not know the internal state of Monero development.

This, in turn, leads to you saying things that are obviously nonsensical when you know better because you've been told as much. For instance, this choice quote of yours (in response to dga that is not part of the Monero core team, and appears to be more involved with BBR than XMR from my casual observation) -

Seriously you have a $6 million marketcap and you all brag about the donation model of funding, so why can't you spend $5000 to get the damn cryptanalysis done going on 3 months after release.

Instead you play manipulative political games. Appearances are that you can't get real work done, and you only have BS politics to fall back on.  Roll Eyes

You can't even build anonymity into mining.  Shocked

This is in direct contrast to a conversation we had just yesterday where I quoted the Monero Missives, indicating that the mathematicians and cryptographers that peer reviewed the whitepaper are now involved in a code analysis and review, focusing initially on validating the cryptographic primitives used. Subsequent to that they will obviously expand their reach to review and analyse the PoW, ring signatures, and so on. You know this. You know that they are not doing this for free (as indicated in the opening of the whitepaper review which you have read). So making a broad-reaching, clearly baseless, obviously factually incorrect statement as you have made vastly reduces your credibility.

Your comment about anonymous mining has already been responded to by smooth who indicated that mining on i2p will work just fine, but the increased latency would likely lead to a higher orphan rate than mining over TCP. So saying that we "can't" build anonymity into mining when we already have is quite bizarre.

Let me be as clear as I can to you, and I'm going to put this in bold so you digest it and understand it and no longer make broad, nonsensical claims:

Monero has a "benevolent dictator". This is the core team, made up (in no specific order) of the following people: tacotime, eizh, smooth, fluffypony, othe, davidlatapie, NoodleDoodle. That's it. If you are responding to anyone of those people, they are speaking with knowledge of Monero's current state and priorities. We are not perfect, and we will say things online that are regrettable or even incorrect, but unless it comes from our mouths it is not "us". Stop treating people that do not necessarily even represent Monero's best interests as if they were somehow part of a hivemind of Monero souls. Stop imagining that we're playing a political game with you. We're happy to engage in a discussion of technical merits, although we are not obligated to share your unique point of view, but we have no interest in having any discussion beyond that with you. We do not have any ulterior motives, and for the most part we ignore the goings on here to focus on getting things done.

I reiterate: DO NOT in future respond to someone who is not part of the Monero core team and act like they represent anything other than their own opinion.
legendary
Activity: 1473
Merit: 1086
July 30, 2014, 04:08:23 AM
Anonymint, maybe start your own thread about all this technical talk?

I and every other regular reader does not understand a word of your conversation and consistant spam of posts. They might be important, but please start a new thread, so we can go back to have an altcoin discussion.

It really ruins my reading experience.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 30, 2014, 03:43:10 AM
well basically it is network effects which gives the one on the superior technology a higher utility when he uses the inferior technology, in the case that all others use them as well. even if drk has more users/investors/speculators at this moment of time the inferior technology will in this case not win against the superior, for the reason that the the elasticity between somewhat half-baked private and full private regarding utility is very high. this is not watching a movie on a vhs which is inferior to betamax, but offers almost the same utility - this is a very sensitive issue: the differences in utility between the better and the worse will be massive.

But Monero's advantage is too muddled to trounce DarkCoin, because while DRK's masternodes could potentially be compromised, XMR's I2P connections could potentially be compromised.

Good luck trying to explain the distinction to a wide audience. You'll never scale that dissemination of marketing.

You see this is where I kick your butt, because I've done million user products before and I understand what matters.

You guys in armchairs. Have. No. Fscking. Clue.

You will get off my lawn kiddies.

I think the only area where this is true is privacy factors.  Other distinctions rooted in technology may be important for usability factors, but these are essentially linear terms.  Privacy is extremely non-linear; in the extreme case, it is nearly a kronecker delta.  Network effects follow power laws, so they generally dominate over usability factors, but are in turn, ceteris paribus, dominated by the privacy factor.

In a fantasy world where 'privacy' isn't a lie that you can't market against. Most people think they have privacy already.

Privacy was never a sufficient feature alone to win this market on. I knew that!

Btw, the anonymity trend was to some significant extent pushed along by me since early 2013 and my voluminous posts on the matter. And you think you can be pissingly disrespectful to me and gain community!

I never did anything to any of you to justify you treating me with such disdain. An apology from you would go a long way towards some hope of mutual respect. But I don't expect it will be forthcoming.

I'm looking at the XMR and BBR charts.  It's pretty obvious that the market is reacting in radically different ways to the two coins.  Essentially, for the past month, BBR is only sold, not bought.  I have behaved this way myself, yet I do not know exactly why it is so.  Perhaps it is the cbuchner miner which destroyed BBR.

Because there is a perception (and perhaps a reality) that confidence is moving towards Monero. Humans are herding creatures. This is the network effects point as well. The main features these investors (speculators) think is important are the ring signatures and the I2P integration. They don't see what BBR has that is important.  BBR is trying to sell a faster hash and some fractional reduction in blockchain bloat, but neither of those features addresses any real perceived dire need (although the faster hash is important long-term for decentralization, but nobody cares right now).
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