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Topic: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;) - page 103. (Read 907229 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).

You can't send the money without the private key corresponding to that output. Nothing about including an output in a ring signature gives you access to the private key. The whole point of ring signatures is that you can construct a ring signature using only the public, not private keys of the other possible signers.

You have only your own private key, so you can only spend your own outputs.

Quote
What this ring signature guarantees. (may I spend all inputs ? is this agreement of this group ? If it guarantees nothing (because anybody can create signature) then why is there (just "smoke screen" for propaganda we are untraceable?))  ... or I'm too stupid.

It guarantees that someone in the group has the private key that enabled him to sign a transaction spending the output. This allows an observer to verify that the output has been spent by the authorized party (someone with the private key) but does not allow the observer to determine which of the group is the authorized party.
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000


Once I know your PUBLIC key I can add you to my GROUP (adding my and your public key together). Then create ring signature and no one knows who signed message you or me. Then I can fork blockchain !!!  (maybe even from genesis block)

Again, you're conflating ring-signed inputs with individually-signed outputs. The trick here is the combination of stealth addresses and ring signatures, not one or the other. I'd suggest you start with the whitepaper and fully grok the maths behind it as a first step towards understanding.

Didn't give fluffypony answers to your questions here?

Maybe, but I do not get it. Can you explain ?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
1. Good thing for hacker(one member of group) to wipe out your wallet by modifying orginal transaction and send all your XMR to his address.

Not possible. Once a transaction is mined its permanent. If you mean after broadcast and before its mined, then you need to follow the maths in the whitepaper. Individual *inputs* are ring-signed, not the whole tx. You can't change an input without mucking up the signature for the whole transaction.

2. How can you guarantee, there is no miner or passive listener who is building unobscured private blockchain and sell this data ? (why not to store internal data unobscured when it takes 6 times less space than monero blockchain)

How? In order for them to do this they'd need to own a massive portion of the utxoset. Maybe you need to read our research bulletin on chain reactions and traceability in the CryptoNote protocol, as it explains exactly why this is impossible without a huge amount of utxos under your private control: http://lab.monero.cc/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

3. How you can prove that you really paid or even did not want to pay.to hacker :-)

Because even though the inputs are ring signed (and thus you can (ostensibly) never know if an input was genuine or merely part of a group signature) the outputs are signed by you and you alone. Thus, verification is trivial - you merely need to reveal the one-time key for that transaction to verify it.

Once I know your PUBLIC key I can add you to my GROUP (adding my and your public key together). Then create ring signature and no one knows who signed message you or me. Then I can fork blockchain !!!  (maybe even from genesis block)

Again, you're conflating ring-signed inputs with individually-signed outputs. The trick here is the combination of stealth addresses and ring signatures, not one or the other. I'd suggest you start with the whitepaper and fully grok the maths behind it as a first step towards understanding.

Didn't give fluffypony answers to your questions here?


Look, an insider!
Not insider :-), only looking for answer to my question:
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).
What this ring signature guarantees. (may I spend all inputs ? is this agreement of this group ? If it guarantees nothing (because anybody can create signature) then why is there (just "smoke screen" for propaganda we are untraceable?))  ... or I'm too stupid.

Edit:
q1: How much money was mined(emitted) and what is total sum of all accounts :-) ?
Edit2:
if you know answer to q1 then you must to know all accounts and their balances.
q2: Do you know how balances change every minute ? [yes] In case, your money are secure, can be blockchain analyzed ? [yes]


read above
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
Look, an insider!
Not insider :-), only looking for answer to my question:
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).
What this ring signature guarantees. (may I spend all inputs ? is this agreement of this group ? If it guarantees nothing (because anybody can create signature) then why is there (just "smoke screen" for propaganda we are untraceable?))  ... or I'm too stupid.

Edit:
q1: How much money was mined(emitted) and what is total sum of all accounts :-) ?
Edit2:
if you know answer to q1 then you must to know all accounts and their balances.
q2: Do you know how balances change every minute ? [yes] In case, your money are secure, can be blockchain analyzed ? [yes]


read above




hint : you're too stupid

You are too smart. ... or blind sheep ?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Look, an insider!
Not insider :-), only looking for answer to my question:
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).
What this ring signature guarantees. (may I spend all inputs ? is this agreement of this group ? If it guarantees nothing (because anybody can create signature) then why is there (just "smoke screen" for propaganda we are untraceable?))  ... or I'm too stupid.

Edit:
q1: How much money was mined(emitted) and what is total sum of all accounts :-) ?
Edit2:
if you know answer to q1 then you must to know all accounts and their balances.
q2: Do you know how balances change every minute ? [yes] In case, your money are secure, can be blockchain analyzed ? [yes]


read above




hint : you're too stupid
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
Look, an insider!
Not insider :-), only looking for answer to my question:
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).
What this ring signature guarantees. (may I spend all inputs ? is this agreement of this group ? If it guarantees nothing (because anybody can create signature) then why is there (just "smoke screen" for propaganda we are untraceable?))  ... or I'm too stupid.

Edit:
q1: How much money was mined(emitted) and what is total sum of all accounts :-) ?
Edit2:
if you know answer to q1 then you must to know all accounts and their balances.
q2: Do you know how balances change every minute ? [yes] In case, your money are secure, can be blockchain analyzed ? [yes]
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
The only way for Bitcoin to lose now is by being overtaken by another cryptocurrency. So, the question now is, what do you think the odds are of Bitcoin failing (let's say going to a market cap <100 Million).

Well that is very unlikely to happen. Also I don't want to be losing 99% of my wealth so I would jump out first, much before.

This jumping out, if it for some reason gains traction, could make the air (market cap) go from one balloon to another really fast.

Nobody can be complacent.


Risto,

You pointed to the SSS strategy for raking a % in case BTC/USD climbed at a given price range, a strategy I fully agree to.

You also pointed to hedging BTC position with an equivalent position in XMR, wich I also agree.

I'm interested to know about your exit strategy in case Bitcoin values come below certain USD values. I mean, what percentage of BTC would you sell (for USD or XMR) at each price range?

Thanks.

Bitcoin has a long history of steep dips, yet it has always gone higher. I think it is prudent to never sell below ATH.

Same applies to Monero of course.

Don't invest in BTC/XMR any money that you cannot lose. And sell so much in the tops that you can take the dips to zero if need be, without getting tempted to sell at the bottom.

What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?
Look, an insider!
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
I do not talk about bitcoin here. Bitcoin is signing transaction perfect. It does not use ring signatures.

Edit:
Alice, Bob and Carol do not want spend their Monero. But hacker Dave wants their money. A ring signature obscures identities because it only proves that a Dave belongs to a group. So Dave ring-signing Alice, Bob Carol and Dave inputs and send XMR to his new stealth addresses.

Edit2:
Monero is same as money on the pavement. So easy to just pick up them from the pavement. Easy money ... but worthless, who can use them?
(Am I wrong ? Why ?)

You're right. What you've pointed out is clearly a gaping hole that allows an attacker to just take everyone's money, and somehow myself, tacotime, smooth, the rest of the Monero core team, andytoshi, gmaxwell, Wladimir v d Laan, Peter Todd, the Monero Research Lab mathematicians / cryptographers, and everyone else that has read the whitepaper and/or looked at the implementation missed this obvious and gaping flaw. Clearly you have the superior intellect and knowledge, I look forward to seeing your published research and PoC code for this flaw soon.

Until then, have a good day.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 

What about:
 publish your monero address
 I'll publish bitcoin address

You will have to pay 1:10 (0.0004 BTC) of the current price 0.004 to published bitcoin address (in bitcoins) for every incoming transaction in monero otherwise you are liar. ?

if every monero coin is so easily "hackable" why do you not do it.

why is it no one has successfully done what you are suggesting?

hint : maybe because you're wrong

Excuse me but Stealing your shit brings me nothing. Maybe you would try to steal my shit.

surely there's plenty of crypto hacker out there looking for easy money.

what are they waiting for, there's a 6 million market cap coin up for grabs  Huh
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
there is NO real need to defect from BTC...
many of us will be dead
By defecting to XMR, I hope to improve my chances of avoiding being one of the dead.
...you cannot live forever...
I was thinking more in terms of 10 years, rather than 50.  I consider the extreme tail risks of holding a private coin to be much less than the extreme tail risks of holding a large amount on a public ledger.

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 

What about:
 publish your monero address
 I'll publish bitcoin address

You will have to pay 1:10 (0.0004 BTC) of the current price 0.004 to published bitcoin address (in bitcoins) for every incoming transaction in monero otherwise you are liar. ?

I would never make an unlimited bet, under any circumstances, because there will always be some finite limit to my ability to pay, and the likelihood that I am hallucinating the whole thing is non-zero.

I would never take an adversarial bet which did not offer a punitive didactic utility to my counterparty - otherwise it would do you no good.

Were it not for one factor, I would accept the bet if it were limited to a token amount, say 1 btc, and if you would send no less than 277.78 XMR to that address.
If, as you imply, you can do this with less that 27.77 XMR, you should find the bet, while less exhorbitantly lucrative, perhaps adequately profitable to make proving your point enjoyable.
The one factor that prevents me from accepting those terms:  It is non-trivial to configure the bet so that you can't just fake a win by sending 10 BTC worth of XMR to me.
That would be happy for me in some ways, but such a deception, while unlikely, would pollute the public mind with disinformation.

However, I would happily post 1 BTC of collateral to a mutually agreed arbiter for the naive wager.
 
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).

Math

legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
if another coin even gets close (same order of mag) to bitcoin in terms of market cap, it seriously erodes the "scarcity" feature/argument of bitcoin, which is one of the most critical arguments for putting any wealth/mindshare/time/effort into bitcoin (and by extension, any crypto). Guys like Schiff and Rickards would be proven right, and no one would be comfortable putting any wealth into any crypto for a long long time. Thus, everyone would lose. Humanity would not see the benefits that decentralized money can bring for many years/decades longer than if bitcoin simply becomes the obvious-to-everyone non-dethronable crypto store of value.

To be clear, I think there's niche value in some alts, and some of the experimentation is valuable. But you guys who think that many coins can live side by side with similar monetizations are missing the key point that if that happened, we'd all be sitting side-by-side at *trivial* market-caps, not big ones.
+1   to Melbustus......... Even though stated in the context of another thread, Melbustus makes very decent and well-articulated points.....

There is one fundamental error:  There are only two markets for liquidity:  Transparent, and private.  Any additional fractioning of the liquidity reduces value rather than enhancing it, because it damages network effects.
The Nash equilibrium is two pools.  The Pareto optimum is also two pools.  Which is bigger, we don't know yet.

Quote
there is NO real need to defect from BTC...
many of us will be dead

By defecting to XMR, I hope to improve my chances of avoiding being one of the dead.



Even if you  have a lot of money, you cannot live forever if you do NOT preserve your healt, and you will really be lucky to live to have a functioning and meaningful life at the age of 100 years.

Even though people want to fantasize about science and medicine and progress and buying their health, energy and youthful vigor, this is just NOT very meaningful in absolute terms to get you past 100 years of functional and meaningful age... that is if you are very lucky in the genetics and the lifestyle and in the choosing the "correct and adequate" healthy life choices department.
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 

What about:
 publish your monero address
 I'll publish bitcoin address

You will have to pay 1:10 (0.0004 BTC) of the current price 0.004 to published bitcoin address (in bitcoins) for every incoming transaction in monero otherwise you are liar. ?

if every monero coin is so easily "hackable" why do you not do it.

why is it no one has successfully done what you are suggesting?

hint : maybe because you're wrong

Excuse me but Stealing your shit brings me nothing. Maybe you would try to steal my shit.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 

What about:
 publish your monero address
 I'll publish bitcoin address

You will have to pay 1:10 (0.0004 BTC) of the current price 0.004 to published bitcoin address (in bitcoins) for every incoming transaction in monero otherwise you are liar. ?

if every monero coin is so easily "hackable" why do you not do it.

why is it no one has successfully done what you are suggesting?








hint : maybe because you're wrong
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Also the hash rate is looking very healthy.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

IMO we still haven't met litcoin target and although bitcoin is lagging now litecoin's recent strength, the next litecoin push down should drag bitcoin down heavily until we see strong buyers.
I was speaking about the correlation of transaction volume and price, what on earth does this have to do with litecoin?
You're talking about correlation implying causation in the form of a price target, so am I. I don't think you got what I did there Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 

What about:
 publish your monero address
 I'll publish bitcoin address

You will have to pay 1:10 (0.0004 BTC) of the current price 0.004 to published bitcoin address (in bitcoins) for every incoming transaction in monero otherwise you are liar. ?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
if another coin even gets close (same order of mag) to bitcoin in terms of market cap, it seriously erodes the "scarcity" feature/argument of bitcoin, which is one of the most critical arguments for putting any wealth/mindshare/time/effort into bitcoin (and by extension, any crypto). Guys like Schiff and Rickards would be proven right, and no one would be comfortable putting any wealth into any crypto for a long long time. Thus, everyone would lose. Humanity would not see the benefits that decentralized money can bring for many years/decades longer than if bitcoin simply becomes the obvious-to-everyone non-dethronable crypto store of value.

To be clear, I think there's niche value in some alts, and some of the experimentation is valuable. But you guys who think that many coins can live side by side with similar monetizations are missing the key point that if that happened, we'd all be sitting side-by-side at *trivial* market-caps, not big ones.
+1   to Melbustus......... Even though stated in the context of another thread, Melbustus makes very decent and well-articulated points.....

There is one fundamental error:  There are only two markets for liquidity:  Transparent, and private.  Any additional fractioning of the liquidity reduces value rather than enhancing it, because it damages network effects.
The Nash equilibrium is two pools.  The Pareto optimum is also two pools.  Which is bigger, we don't know yet.

Quote
there is NO real need to defect from BTC...
many of us will be dead

By defecting to XMR, I hope to improve my chances of avoiding being one of the dead.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?

I will take that bet. 
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
Here is the chart of adjusted number of bitcoin transactions. I chose a two-year duration, with seven day smoothing, and with a log scale. Note that the current value is now higher than all but a few days at the November 2013 peak. Should this trend in transaction volume continue, I expect that bitcoin prices will rise also.

Only if the trend outpaces the growth in supply.
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