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Topic: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;) - page 104. (Read 907212 times)

legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 10832
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
However; the financial connection to bitcoin from it's current users is, in my opinion, the strongest lock in effect you can have in any new technology... Users who hold a certain amount of bitcoin as a long term investment are very much determined to stay and make the technology a success...

I have seen many bitcoin defectors in the phase of the last 6 weeks or so. The process goes as such:

- Realize that the final # of BTC (21M) is about the same as the final number of XMR (18M).
- Realize that by buying equal number of XMR, you are actually slightly ahead if it gains vs. BTC
- Realize that 1 XMR = 0.004 BTC
- Realize that hedge buying costs you essentially nothing except your pride of having never invested in an alt before
- Start to follow community
- Realize that many good guys are there
- Start to participate
- Realize that people there are on average actually cooler than just Bitcoin proponents
- Let that sink in
- Realize that it's possible to increase your financial position in the event that XMR succeeds vs. BTC, by buying more XMR
- Buy more XMR
- Realize that there is nothing BTC does better than XMR (once certain infrastructure is built to the latter)
- Realize things that should not be written in a Bitcoin forum
- Buy more XMR

The defection is completed when you start to feel that the world would be better without Bitcoin, with only XMR. Then you make the commitment to dump your BTC (that is still 50%-95% of your crypto) once the critical moment comes. When it does, XMR may go up 100x-1000x in a single year, and become so big that even BTC's value will be affected.

The defection payoff is currently about 250:1 (the difference in their price). You should understand that you may choose any level of defection, you can even defect with a 2.5:1 payoff by risking only 1% of your BTC, which is no defection at all, rather a hedge as discussed previously. This is starting to look like the similar kind of self-reinforcing mechanism that I posited for Bitcoin in early 2013, and prior to that, silver (which also rose 6x during the time of my all-in investment).




if another coin even gets close (same order of mag) to bitcoin in terms of market cap, it seriously erodes the "scarcity" feature/argument of bitcoin, which is one of the most critical arguments for putting any wealth/mindshare/time/effort into bitcoin (and by extension, any crypto). Guys like Schiff and Rickards would be proven right, and no one would be comfortable putting any wealth into any crypto for a long long time. Thus, everyone would lose. Humanity would not see the benefits that decentralized money can bring for many years/decades longer than if bitcoin simply becomes the obvious-to-everyone non-dethronable crypto store of value.

To be clear, I think there's niche value in some alts, and some of the experimentation is valuable. But you guys who think that many coins can live side by side with similar monetizations are missing the key point that if that happened, we'd all be sitting side-by-side at *trivial* market-caps, not big ones.



+1   to Melbustus......... Even though stated in the context of another thread, Melbustus makes very decent and well-articulated points.....

In this regard, there is NO real need to defect from BTC or to attempt to defect from BTC because any such defection may cause an undermining of BTC and potentially an undermining of all cryptos - in the sense of undermining confidence and in the sense of creating the impression that all cryptos are pumps and dumps and that we can just continue to wait for the next supposedly "better" crypto to come along..   

In that regard, we NEED the strengthening of bitcoin for some time to prevail.. and maybe in 50 or 100 years from now, we can transfer over to something else or consider transferring over to something else or... or maybe it would just be that Bitcoin could be forked.. 50 or 100 years from now... ? 

In 50 years many of us will be dead or on our last leg(s), and in 100 years, we will all be dead (except for some rare miracle of life prolongation - which still may cause anyone here still alive to be quite crippled by that time), but surely it is a good thing to have a plan that goes at least 50, 100 or more years into the future - even though today's investment decisions will likely be motivated by shorter time frames that will differ from investor to investor.. such as 1 eek or 6 months or 1 year or 3 years or 5 years or 15 years or 30 years... and probably, no matter which time frame motivates your investment considerations, you are going to need to engage in periodic and/or continuous reassessment(s) of the BTC situation in light of related factors.

legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
The only way for Bitcoin to lose now is by being overtaken by another cryptocurrency. So, the question now is, what do you think the odds are of Bitcoin failing (let's say going to a market cap <100 Million).

Well that is very unlikely to happen. Also I don't want to be losing 99% of my wealth so I would jump out first, much before.

This jumping out, if it for some reason gains traction, could make the air (market cap) go from one balloon to another really fast.

Nobody can be complacent.


Risto,

You pointed to the SSS strategy for raking a % in case BTC/USD climbed at a given price range, a strategy I fully agree to.

You also pointed to hedging BTC position with an equivalent position in XMR, wich I also agree.

I'm interested to know about your exit strategy in case Bitcoin values come below certain USD values. I mean, what percentage of BTC would you sell (for USD or XMR) at each price range?

Thanks.

Bitcoin has a long history of steep dips, yet it has always gone higher. I think it is prudent to never sell below ATH.

Same applies to Monero of course.

Don't invest in BTC/XMR any money that you cannot lose. And sell so much in the tops that you can take the dips to zero if need be, without getting tempted to sell at the bottom.

What about bet, Monero has BIG security flaw and will be ZERO next week ?
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
The only way for Bitcoin to lose now is by being overtaken by another cryptocurrency. So, the question now is, what do you think the odds are of Bitcoin failing (let's say going to a market cap <100 Million).

Well that is very unlikely to happen. Also I don't want to be losing 99% of my wealth so I would jump out first, much before.

This jumping out, if it for some reason gains traction, could make the air (market cap) go from one balloon to another really fast.

Nobody can be complacent.


Risto,

You pointed to the SSS strategy for raking a % in case BTC/USD climbed at a given price range, a strategy I fully agree to.

You also pointed to hedging BTC position with an equivalent position in XMR, wich I also agree.

I'm interested to know about your exit strategy in case Bitcoin values come below certain USD values. I mean, what percentage of BTC would you sell (for USD or XMR) at each price range?

Thanks.

Bitcoin has a long history of steep dips, yet it has always gone higher. I think it is prudent to never sell below ATH.

Same applies to Monero of course.

Don't invest in BTC/XMR any money that you cannot lose. And sell so much in the tops that you can take the dips to zero if need be, without getting tempted to sell at the bottom.
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 280
The only way for Bitcoin to lose now is by being overtaken by another cryptocurrency. So, the question now is, what do you think the odds are of Bitcoin failing (let's say going to a market cap <100 Million).

Well that is very unlikely to happen. Also I don't want to be losing 99% of my wealth so I would jump out first, much before.

This jumping out, if it for some reason gains traction, could make the air (market cap) go from one balloon to another really fast.

Nobody can be complacent.


Risto,

You pointed to the SSS strategy for raking a % in case BTC/USD climbed at a given price range, a strategy I fully agree to.

You also pointed to hedging BTC position with an equivalent position in XMR, wich I also agree.

I'm interested to know about your exit strategy in case Bitcoin values come below certain USD values. I mean, what percentage of BTC would you sell (for USD or XMR) at each price range?

Thanks.
hero member
Activity: 665
Merit: 500
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Also the hash rate is looking very healthy.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

IMO we still haven't met litcoin target and although bitcoin is lagging now litecoin's recent strength, the next litecoin push down should drag bitcoin down heavily until we see strong buyers.
I was speaking about the correlation of transaction volume and price, what on earth does this have to do with litecoin?
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
lol, I still don't get it.
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).

Please take the time to familiarise yourself with some basic cryptocurrency concepts:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Input
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Output

http://www.coindesk.com/information/how-do-bitcoin-transactions-work/

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide

Edit: again, not to repeat myself, but as I already said in my previous post: "You can't change an input without mucking up the signature for the whole transaction."

I do not talk about bitcoin here. Bitcoin is signing transaction perfect. It does not use ring signatures.

Edit:
Alice, Bob and Carol do not want spend their Monero. But hacker Dave wants their money. A ring signature obscures identities because it only proves that a Dave belongs to a group. So Dave ring-signing Alice, Bob Carol and Dave inputs and send XMR to his new stealth addresses.

Edit2:
Monero is same as money on the pavement. So easy to just pick up them from the pavement. Easy money ... but worthless, who can use them?
(Am I wrong ? Why ?)
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
lol, I still don't get it.
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).

Please take the time to familiarise yourself with some basic cryptocurrency concepts:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Input
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Output

http://www.coindesk.com/information/how-do-bitcoin-transactions-work/

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide

Edit: again, not to repeat myself, but as I already said in my previous post: "You can't change an input without mucking up the signature for the whole transaction."
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Also the hash rate is looking very healthy.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

IMO we still haven't met litcoin target and although bitcoin is lagging now litecoin's recent strength, the next litecoin push down should drag bitcoin down heavily until we see strong buyers.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
- Realize that there is nothing BTC does better than XMR (once certain infrastructure is built to the latter)

Is there infrastructure that's going to shrink the transaction sizes?  Because if not, that's something bitcoin does better.   

IIUC The number of transactions/sec that a full monero node can support is far less than bitcoin's.  This is important because if your own computer can't keep up, you have to trust someone else to do it for you.
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
1. Good thing for hacker(one member of group) to wipe out your wallet by modifying orginal transaction and send all your XMR to his address.

Not possible. Once a transaction is mined its permanent. If you mean after broadcast and before its mined, then you need to follow the maths in the whitepaper. Individual *inputs* are ring-signed, not the whole tx. You can't change an input without mucking up the signature for the whole transaction.

2. How can you guarantee, there is no miner or passive listener who is building unobscured private blockchain and sell this data ? (why not to store internal data unobscured when it takes 6 times less space than monero blockchain)

How? In order for them to do this they'd need to own a massive portion of the utxoset. Maybe you need to read our research bulletin on chain reactions and traceability in the CryptoNote protocol, as it explains exactly why this is impossible without a huge amount of utxos under your private control: http://lab.monero.cc/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

3. How you can prove that you really paid or even did not want to pay.to hacker :-)

Because even though the inputs are ring signed (and thus you can (ostensibly) never know if an input was genuine or merely part of a group signature) the outputs are signed by you and you alone. Thus, verification is trivial - you merely need to reveal the one-time key for that transaction to verify it.

Once I know your PUBLIC key I can add you to my GROUP (adding my and your public key together). Then create ring signature and no one knows who signed message you or me. Then I can fork blockchain !!!  (maybe even from genesis block)

Again, you're conflating ring-signed inputs with individually-signed outputs. The trick here is the combination of stealth addresses and ring signatures, not one or the other. I'd suggest you start with the whitepaper and fully grok the maths behind it as a first step towards understanding.

lol, I still don't get it.
Who or what prevents me from ring-signing your input and send your money to my address(output).
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
Here is the chart of adjusted number of bitcoin transactions. I chose a two-year duration, with seven day smoothing, and with a log scale. Note that the current value is now higher than all but a few days at the November 2013 peak. Should this trend in transaction volume continue, I expect that bitcoin prices will rise also.

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1003
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

XMR will be 500 USD? I proudly hodl small stash for zombie apocalypse case.

I'm of course speaking of btc. THis thread is a btc thread after all. Or are all or Risto's threads now Monero only since it is his new favourite pet?

Man, just mixed up all tabs. BTW want to believe.
hero member
Activity: 665
Merit: 500
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

XMR will be 500 USD? I proudly hodl small stash for zombie apocalypse case.

I'm of course speaking of btc. THis thread is a btc thread after all. Or are all or Risto's threads now Monero only since it is his new favourite pet?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1003
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.

XMR will be 500 USD? I proudly hodl small stash for zombie apocalypse case.
hero member
Activity: 665
Merit: 500
Anyone notice that the number of transactions per day broke to the upside today? If Peter R is correct with the correlation between transactions and price either the correlation is starting to break or price is lagging and we will see a shot for $500 soon.

Also the hash rate is looking very healthy.

Either way I wouldn't be shorting atm.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
1. Good thing for hacker(one member of group) to wipe out your wallet by modifying orginal transaction and send all your XMR to his address.

Not possible. Once a transaction is mined its permanent. If you mean after broadcast and before its mined, then you need to follow the maths in the whitepaper. Individual *inputs* are ring-signed, not the whole tx. You can't change an input without mucking up the signature for the whole transaction.

2. How can you guarantee, there is no miner or passive listener who is building unobscured private blockchain and sell this data ? (why not to store internal data unobscured when it takes 6 times less space than monero blockchain)

How? In order for them to do this they'd need to own a massive portion of the utxoset. Maybe you need to read our research bulletin on chain reactions and traceability in the CryptoNote protocol, as it explains exactly why this is impossible without a huge amount of utxos under your private control: http://lab.monero.cc/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf

3. How you can prove that you really paid or even did not want to pay.to hacker :-)

Because even though the inputs are ring signed (and thus you can (ostensibly) never know if an input was genuine or merely part of a group signature) the outputs are signed by you and you alone. Thus, verification is trivial - you merely need to reveal the one-time key for that transaction to verify it.

Once I know your PUBLIC key I can add you to my GROUP (adding my and your public key together). Then create ring signature and no one knows who signed message you or me. Then I can fork blockchain !!!  (maybe even from genesis block)

Again, you're conflating ring-signed inputs with individually-signed outputs. The trick here is the combination of stealth addresses and ring signatures, not one or the other. I'd suggest you start with the whitepaper and fully grok the maths behind it as a first step towards understanding.
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
Ring signature
Quote
One of the security properties of a ring signature is that it should be difficult to determine which of the group members' keys was used to produce the signature.

1. Good thing for hacker(one member of group) to wipe out your wallet by modifying orginal transaction and send all your XMR to his address.

2. How can you guarantee, there is no miner or passive listener who is building unobscured private blockchain and sell this data ? (why not to store internal data unobscured when it takes 6 times less space than monero blockchain)

3. How you can prove that you really paid or even did not want to pay.to hacker :-)

Risto, it looks to me that you bet on bad horse.

Edit:
Quote
Ring signatures are similar to group signatures but differ in two key ways: first, there is no way to revoke the anonymity of an individual signature, and second, any group of users can be used as a group without additional setup.

Once I know your PUBLIC key I can add you to my GROUP (adding my and your public key together). Then create ring signature and no one knows who signed message you or me. Then I can fork blockchain !!!  (maybe even from genesis block)
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
However; the financial connection to bitcoin from it's current users is, in my opinion, the strongest lock in effect you can have in any new technology... Users who hold a certain amount of bitcoin as a long term investment are very much determined to stay and make the technology a success...

I have seen many bitcoin defectors in the phase of the last 6 weeks or so. The process goes as such:

- Realize that the final # of BTC (21M) is about the same as the final number of XMR (18M).
- Realize that by buying equal number of XMR, you are actually slightly ahead if it gains vs. BTC
- Realize that 1 XMR = 0.004 BTC
- Realize that hedge buying costs you essentially nothing except your pride of having never invested in an alt before
- Start to follow community
- Realize that many good guys are there
- Start to participate
- Realize that people there are on average actually cooler than just Bitcoin proponents
- Let that sink in
- Realize that it's possible to increase your financial position in the event that XMR succeeds vs. BTC, by buying more XMR
- Buy more XMR
- Realize that there is nothing BTC does better than XMR (once certain infrastructure is built to the latter)
- Realize things that should not be written in a Bitcoin forum
- Buy more XMR

The defection is completed when you start to feel that the world would be better without Bitcoin, with only XMR. Then you make the commitment to dump your BTC (that is still 50%-95% of your crypto) once the critical moment comes. When it does, XMR may go up 100x-1000x in a single year, and become so big that even BTC's value will be affected.

The defection payoff is currently about 250:1 (the difference in their price). You should understand that you may choose any level of defection, you can even defect with a 2.5:1 payoff by risking only 1% of your BTC, which is no defection at all, rather a hedge as discussed previously. This is starting to look like the similar kind of self-reinforcing mechanism that I posited for Bitcoin in early 2013, and prior to that, silver (which also rose 6x during the time of my all-in investment).




if another coin even gets close (same order of mag) to bitcoin in terms of market cap, it seriously erodes the "scarcity" feature/argument of bitcoin, which is one of the most critical arguments for putting any wealth/mindshare/time/effort into bitcoin (and by extension, any crypto). Guys like Schiff and Rickards would be proven right, and no one would be comfortable putting any wealth into any crypto for a long long time. Thus, everyone would lose. Humanity would not see the benefits that decentralized money can bring for many years/decades longer than if bitcoin simply becomes the obvious-to-everyone non-dethronable crypto store of value.

To be clear, I think there's niche value in some alts, and some of the experimentation is valuable. But you guys who think that many coins can live side by side with similar monetizations are missing the key point that if that happened, we'd all be sitting side-by-side at *trivial* market-caps, not big ones.


legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Bitcoin tx data is basically useless as a metric because it costs near 0 to send a tx. If there is no cost to something, then it can done with repetition, e.g. Coinbase has a feature to send BTC to friend in email and you can send any tiny amount you want.


The data you claim is useless is highly correlated with bitcoin market cap and seems to obey Metcalfe's Law: V ~ N2 .



Have you done an update on the last 6 months data Peter R?
legendary
Activity: 1281
Merit: 1000
☑ ♟ ☐ ♚


- Realize that by buying equal number of XMR, you are actually slightly ahead if it gains vs. BTC
- Realize that many good guys are there

I completely agree with these points. Actually, the only thing why I take monero seriously, is that there are quite many btc early adopters involved.

Quote
- Realize that there is nothing BTC does better than XMR (once certain infrastructure is built to the latter)

There is too much to do. According to anonymity and coding guru Peter Todd,
"The Cryptonote/Bytecoin codebase #XMR is based on is atrociously bad, orders of magnitude worse than #Bitcoin. "

Also, bitcoin's infrastruction is going forward faster than moneros. I don't see this changing unless there is some fatal problem with bitcoin.
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