Topic: rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;) - page 339. (Read 907212 times)

This is something that all free market fundamentalists tend not to want to see and when someone points it out, that person gets accused of not understanding how truly free markets work.

It all depends how the end will take place. If MtGox pays out it's customers and then just shuts it's doors, then it will be positive and will make the price rise.
If it turns out that MtGox is insolvent and will shut it's doors with leaving it's customers with empty hands, then we will see the biggest panic in the history of BTC. All the regular investors will start cashing out their coins because they won't be certain if other exchanges are honest. That will make all the whales cash out as well, and the companies that adopted BTC payment will distance themselves quickly with disabling payment and BTC will actually go back to single digits or less, with a small group of religious believers left behind.
That will probably be the end of BTC, because that much negative with a single wave, will distance any future investors. There would be a future for cryptos in general, but the creators of the new cryptos, will have A VERY HARD time explaining people how the faults of BTC have been fixed with this new coin, so that the catastrophic end won't repeat itself.

I have been telling people that the BTC market system needs some auditing and regulations, but most like to hide their heads in sand and they just hope that free market will take care of everything. Well, the free market doesn't deal with corruption and without any order, the corruption will spread more and more.
Because if MtGox is insolvent and it keeps doing business as usual, with presenting false numbers about it's liquidity and assets, then it's a problem of corruption in the market system.

Anybody care to predict BTC price if Mt. Gox abruptly runs out of business?
Bearish short term, bullish long term, neutral?

The creation of an entity or several entities is the market. I applaud and would actively support such a hopefully positive endeavour. The Foundation is one thing - I don't see this thing mirroring that concept. You can have an organisation/entity that supports grass roots, supports the very nature of the decentralisation.

I think that currently the best game plan would be to create a public letter addressed to Bitcoin Foundation, about their shortcomings and the risks involved with their activity or mostly lack of activity. The letter would ask their opinion on the current situation and what are their proposed solutions.
It then depends on their reply if more pressure needs to be added to them or not.

I think that provoking a public dialogue with them is the best way, because it will be harder for them to ignore it. The letter has to be supported by enough forum members that it can't be ignored. The letter would be in a form of an topic, and forum members who support the letter, can sign their name under replies.

I think most are afraid to criticize the Bitcoin Foundation because they are afraid that it will hurt the integrity of bitcoin and will lower it's value. And they might be right, but it will only have a short-term effect. Making the community stronger and more responsible will eventually make bitcoin value rise, because it will strengthen the main thing that gives value to bitcoin.
If everyone will just hide their heads in sand and hope that somehow everything will just be alright, then the community isn't strong enough and doesn't deserve to survive.

Thank you rpietila, for showing that there are people in the bitcoin community, who are ready to step out of their comfort zone and face the reality that we are currently living in.

Personally I'd prefer no leadership att all. The more decenentalized the better imo. Of course we need people that are active in the community and speak in favor of bitcoin but I don't think we need anymore organizations that speak the word of bitcoin. Let the market do it's job. When it comes to MtGox the market is doing just this with the increasing spread between Gox and other exchanges. Think it's working perfectly in that aspect. If MtGox problems increase the market will keep "judging" it in the way it requires.

I don't want to put rpietila down in anyway. His posts are what made me join bitcointLk in the first place. I just love the posts about how 10btc will make you super rich etc. Also his trading skills are far superior than most in the other wall thread.

Sir,
Thank you for these encouraging words.

Indeed isn't it funny that it took this long for anyone to realize that Bitcoin Foundation is stillborn and act on it decisively (even though at this point it only means a forum). How many have been lead astray (to Mt.Gox) because of their shady dealings? In plain daylight. Shameful.

What is happening now is much bigger than one forum section.

Besides I cannot really solicit paying Theymos BTC10 for getting access to mostly empty donator place which lacks the qualifications for becoming a good arena of thought. Save your money.

Now we are getting somewhere. There needs to be some proper leadership in the bitcoin community. It's childish to think that bitcoin can survive without any leadership that could organize people to reach common goals. The most important and the most difficult thing here is that the leadership has to be chosen in a democratic manner. But discussing this subject is the first step in creating a proper structure in the bitcoin community.
Because without any structural development inside the community, bitcoin will just fade away because it's not able to pass certain thresholds.

For instance, what I myself consider the most important subject here is the situation with MtGox. When most of the community can see that MtGox is insolvent and are lying to people about their "never-ending technical difficulties", then something needs to be done. When most of the community are just trying to hide their heads in sand, then it means that the community is weak, very weak.
All the new people that learn about bitcoin from bitcoin.org are still being directed to MtGox as the main exchange they should use. This means that all the new people that get involved, will get their first experience a negative one and they will tell everyone about that negative experience. And when MtGox will actually shut it's doors and it will come out that they didn't actually have the $ or coins that their numbers showed, then Bitcoin will be called an Ponzi Scheme throughout the media. All the regular folks won't make the difference between bitcoin and mtgox. They only see that a lot of people who invested in bitcoin, lost their money because they were lied to.

Try and sound as smartie pants as you like, I have read enough from you to understand that you are another Bitcoin ideologist. And what you really mean by people who lack philosophical grounding, is people who don't share your own rosy Bitcoin ideology. People who just want to make a quick buck or ten, perhaps (like all the early adopters have done).

Do I lack a philosophical grounding, for example?


If Bitcoin were one day to take a place in the centre of global finance, how it would it operate in principle any differently from the gold standard, when those who held the most gold, held everyone else to ransom? Bitcoin is even billed as 'digital' gold. Bitcoin is already far too cornered a market, and that is just with 50% of the total coins mined. Who is gonna get their hands on the remaining 50%? Joe Blow and his homemade multi GPU mining rig or those with a huge amount of capital behind them?

Correct me if I am mistaken but I thought there was already a private VIP section of these forums already.  Why redo what is already done?

Finally there is a liberty-minded Bitcoin forum then!

If the others find it good, I will change my economics research threads there. If they don't, I may do it anyway because of liberty

Yes, it is definitely the time to have a network which actually cares about Bitcoin and its members' liberties.

The "bitcoin foundation" has shown its skin in the longish time it has existed. Other secret societies also have not benefited the public.

It is time for all this to change. Long Live Goat the Great!

do you know what philosophy is mat? it's the study of validity, consistency, entailment, plausibility. do these ring a bell? no? you have just presented me with a red herring fallacy. you are continually guilty of ad hominem and strawman fallacies. Really I try with you mat but your arguments just dont equate to anything.  

Everyday people are also starting to understand that Bitcoin is as revolutionary as email was with communication, as well as the idea you can directly buy a piece of the pie which allows you to have the following in varying degrees

The philosophical attraction of bitcoin is that it hopefully allows the creation of a system of money and banking that removes the element of coercion that has all too frequently gone hand in hand with finance throughout history. Removing the element of coercion does not immediately fix all problems. It does, however, make it an entirely new ball game -- not the same old shite by a longshot.

Philosophical Grounding....?

......What a load of old bollocks.

Bitcoin is driven by avarice and I suspect a creeping sense of power and control felt by those who make these markets. For this reason and this reason alone, the nominal valuation of Bitcoin has shot through the roof (limited supply), yet its' actual real world applications remain very limited, and perhaps an argument can be made that Bitcoin's overvaluation is now inhibiting it's uptake in the wider economy, despite the best attempts of certain whale entities to hold Bitcoin in a certain price range. Everyone with a bit of sense knows this, and who is going to place any of their eggs on a battered beaten up wagon that is being held together against all the laws of physics by the will of the wagon driver(s) to not allow it to break? The very same wagon drivers who were perhaps responsible for ripping the arse out of the whole thing to begin with?

Bitcoin might be the first of a kind, the harbinger of a technological era credit transfer process, but when we get down to its bare bones, its just the same old market cornering shite that has always went hand in hand with finance throughout history and right now there is a lot of shaking down to be done and nobody will be shaking down any of my pennies, pounds, or dollars.

Sorry, but anyone who wants to profess a 'philosophical grounding' in Bitcoin right now is a bit of a clown as far as I am concerned..unless of course they took their stake in the game nice and early, in which case they can afford such mental self-indulgences.

+1 well said.

Good ideas/ideals don't magically change economic market realities.  Big holders will exist in everything.  The benefit of crypto over regular financial shenanigans is that the rules can't be changed on fly by those same big holders to their benefit.   

can you blame him?
there are far too many people round here that have no philosophical grounding.
then there are people like proudhon... bless his soul.
the top dogs dont want all that.