Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 308. (Read 77288 times)

Yes. The Ukrainian people will eventually forgive the deluded Russians after this aggression is over, but not before Ukrainian independence and sovereignty are restored. And not before Putin and his Russian bullies are dealt with in a firm and just way that stops his aggressive activities and gives Ukraine the sovereign rights to create a secure future for itself. This is not only possible, it is inevitable. The history books will be telling tales of Ukraine's destruction and disrespect for national sovereignty for decades to come. The Ukrainian people will hold Russia accountable for its actions, which will have lasting consequences for Russia.

The topic is called invasion, technically it is an invasion, in fact it is a unique military special operation. Here we are discussing the Russian invasion of Ukraine, this is the military-political aspect of a larger hybrid economic-information war of the entire West against Russia. The economic aspect of the confrontation can be discussed in the economy section of this forum, there is also an interesting story with the European oil embargo following the coal embargo, and a powerful intrigue with paying for gas in rubles to circumvent sanctions. It's the perfect storm.

What nonsense, you draw at least premature conclusions, because the operation continues and seems to be quite successful. I would say that in general, things are going great for Russia. You were right about Dvornikov's tactics - they are very simple and effective. Reconnaissance drones, then the work of artillery and multiple launch rocket systems, then tanks under the cover of infantry and front-line aviation. The tactics of parallel short offensives to minimize the front line, in the Donbass, there is a methodical slow grinding of the fortified positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with minimal losses and a compact numerical strength. The most combat-ready units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the east have already been destroyed, taken prisoner or bled after two months of continuous fighting, and freshly mobilized reservists come to the eastern front as cannon fodder and I think the Ukrainians who want to die there will soon run out. Russia, the LPR and the DPR are slowly and methodically pressing from the east, and apparently soon they will push through the fortified areas of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass. What happens next is interesting to me, there are many interested actors and many options for the development of events, and the chances for Russia seem favorable to me.

Of course, I would also prefer a quick and bloodless operation, without unnecessary casualties, destruction and bloodshed. Unfortunately, for this, Ukraine must capitulate, because Russia's policy towards Nazism is characterized by zero tolerance. Russia denounces Nazism and has strong evidence of widespread Nazism in Ukraine. There are serious documentary claims about the work of bio-laboratories in Ukraine. The contents of the bunker near Azovstal have not yet been fully disclosed, but the Azov fighters are already behaving there openly like terrorists, trying to exchange hostages for food by live weight. According to the results of the operation, there will be a court like Nuremberg 2, all those responsible will be punished. The fate of the territories of Ukraine liberated from Nazism will be decided by referendums of local residents following the Kosovo precedent. Everyone will again live a peaceful, calm life, as befits civilized Europeans.

Scandinavians are much more adequate than Ukrainians and for the most part do not experience Russophobia. There are problems with the adequacy of politicians with a vagina who have fallen under the spell of the masculine image of NATO and make incomprehensible initiatives from which the people of Finland and Sweden are actively perplexed. So the entry of Finland and Sweden into NATO is still in question, in Finland there are debates in parliament and it seems that common sense is ready to prevail there.

You can always do something better, it turns out as it turns out. It’s hard for me to blame Putin for something, it seems that his tactics are quite safe for the inhabitants of Russia, and his strategy is fully consistent with the interests of Russia as a sovereign state. I am sorry that Putin's actions do not meet your expectations and if they infringe on the anti-Russian interests of Ukraine. Ukraine is free to act as a sovereign state, but Russia is also free to respond to existential threats against itself.

Thanks for recognising that it is an invasion (not a liberation, denazification nor anything else but an invasion - your own words).

- Nothing is happening
- Just an operation
- This is an invasion       < ----- you are here  
- This is a war between Russia and Ukraine.
- This is a war of aggression by Putin.
- This is a crime.

No, I mean exactly what I wrote: that Putin has been brought into a war that is a trap. He is to blame for the invasion because he decided to invade - he may have decided something else, but he lacks a group of people that can tell him he is wrong and has been fooled into believing he could achieve a quick win. Him and his circle have  started  something they cannot finish. There are winners in this war, Russia is not one of them.


I do not see a "no" here. Let's leave it there.


A peace treaty? Are Ukraine and Russia at war then?  (I think they are, do you?)

Irony apart, there isn't anything like a full defeat, unconditional or conditional or any type of surrender. This is a bear trap and a nasty one.

You demand unconditional surrender from Ukraine while you argue they are not willing to negotiate. I am not sure you what type of deals have you closed in your life - usually someone concedes something and the other concedes as well so everyone is slightly unhappy with the result. In this case, by waging war, I can tell you that both sides are going to be worse off. There is no way the US and Europe are going to let Russia come better-off this war and there is no way Ukraine is going to forget. Needless to say that all the dead civilians and soldiers are not better off.

But the biggest problem Putin will now face is not Ukraine. Finland, Sweden and Ukraine are certainly now almost forced to join NATO. Europe will take all steps to reduce or remove energy trading with Russia. Congratulations for your victory.

Ukrainian people will pay a high price for freedom - it should have been much easier, if Russia had a decent leadership.

If you watch a longer, 2-minute footage, you can see that after the strike at the end of the video, the boat didn't sink, but continued to swim.
Is there any evidence that these boats sank afterwards?

---

Is it known how thoroughly the AP studied the version with an explosion inside the building? What experts do AP rely on?
The Russian side cited the opinion of Vladislav Ivanovich Telichko, the former Deputy Minister for Emergency Situations of Ukraine, who refutes the airstrike version. According to him, the explosion was carried out inside the theater.
Video with his commentary: https://t.me/srochnow/6820
A translation from Russian to English
01:50 - "Here's another interesting point. This is a fire hydrant. If the explosion had been a little higher at this level, then these articulated joints and everything else would have been deformed or, most likely, even destroyed. But since there were several storey mates and a load-bearing wall, they closed this niche from below. Above us is a roof. If there was an explosion from above, then this swivel would not function. According to this picture of the explosion, the explosion was clearly under the lower layer of reinforced concrete base, on which there was an auditorium and the stage itself".
03:14 - "You see, what I said. There was a third floor, and this is the first floor. The lower, the greater the deformation, much stronger and more. That is, the epicenter of the explosion was under all structures".
04:17 - "The reinforced concrete slab was completely destroyed, and it all went down. The explosion was from below".

Pro-Ukrainian individuals may accuse Vladislav Telichko of bias or subjectivity, that's why such high-profile events should be investigated by independent experts who are neutral towards both sides of the conflict.

---

Under this video, one user left a comment, that it was a Russian retaliatory strike on a Ukrainian howitzer.

A translation from Russian to English
Svetlana Vakulenko: "Kharkiv News should also tell that it was a response from the Russian Federation. Maybe someone will tell why it was necessary the AFU show themself first - from a self-propelled howitzer in the direction of Zhukov, in the area of the park, along Novgorodskaya st. (traces of caterpillars on the street are difficult to remove) - and then catch the answer? There are enough witnesses of the shooting of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from Novgorodskaya. A big thank you to the public utilities and firefighters for their work!"

Looks like this user was talking about the northwestern part of the park: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0218228,36.2445698,17z

Original

My neighbor's wife is russian (studied in europe), his brother's girlfriend is ukrainian.
Both say all russians are routinely brainwashed, practically after given birth.
Right after that statement i could perfectly understand be.open's reasonings.
He's a victim, similar to the boys that died in "military training outside the borders of UA" recently.

Russia is a bubble.

It's embarrassing to quote myself, I've already answered a similar question.

No, it won't make me happy. As Sri Aurobindo Ghose said, "Imperfect is joy that is not shared by all". I am hurt by the suffering of the Ukrainian people, who, due to their stupidity, are forced to experience all the horrors of war. I hope after the operation Ukraine will find a new worthy meaning of life, except for hatred for the fraternal Russian people.

It seems like a couple of times I gave a link to a specific video in Kadyrov's telegram as a prooflink. Or do you seriously think that Chechens know how to deepfake when they shoot a video on the selfie camera of their smartphone?

Russia has no problems with territories, but it does have problems with a crazy neighbor who has been cultivating hatred of Russians as his national idea for a whole generation. He will have to be punished for this, since diplomatic efforts have not been successful. Be patient, at first it will hurt, and then life will get better.

The policy of Moldova can be called pro-Romanian, up to the plans for the Moldovan-Romanian union. Moldova in the issue of Ukraine is more like a proxy for Romania, plus for it it is a chance to resolve the issue with Transnistria.

Of course, Poland has the most legally justified claims to the western part of Ukraine. In fact, Ukraine voluntarily abandoned six western regions in favor of Poland when, in 2015, it signed a joint declaration condemning the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, according to which these territories that previously belonged to Poland were transferred to Ukraine. It is a pity that you did not know about it, well, now you know.

In addition to Poland, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Belarus also have territorial claims to Ukraine for historical reasons. There is an opinion (although I do not adhere to it) that Russia deliberately does not force the complete liberation of Donbass, expecting Poland to invade Western Ukraine. And even provokes Poland to such an invasion through the efforts of the Foreign Intelligence Service.

And that was Russia's best offer for Ukraine. Ukraine had to agree, it was possible to save the lives of tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and the Kherson region. Russia's next proposal will be even worse.

Ahh whataboutism, there is no hypocrisy or double standard that it cannot retort.

I'm not defending or justifying anyone, just being a realist. In a perfect world, we all have unlimited freedoms, hugs and kisses, and sing Kumbaya. Unfortunately we're not there yet, so through hard lessons of MAD best we could come up with is to give superpowers their distance and let them all play in their own sandboxes. Sure it's not perfect, has it's own issues but that's the best we could come up with. Now, this whole concept that provided relative peace is being unilaterally challenged, under cover or freedom (of course applied selectively only where it's preferential i.e. not Saudi Arabia or middle east). The results are as expected, and shouldn't surprise anyone.

As an added benefit such convenient new policy can easily start a war between China and Taiwan anytime US wishes, just start sending weapons to Taiwan, it's like everyone knows you'll be starting a war but you can totally get away with it under premise of freedom spreading.



I didn't think that the idea that rules either have to be applied equally or non at all, was such a hard concept to grasp. From April 26, 2022

https://www.state.gov/teleconference-with-assistant-secretary-of-state-for-east-asian-and-pacific-affairs-daniel-kritenbrink

Think US/Australia said it best (military alliances are a red line for Australia) and US have a significant concerns and it would very naturally respond to those concerns (apparently even the ones on the other side of the world), and cold war has nothing to do with it. You do not want to set a precedence where China can buy their way into military bases on US/Mexico border.

Putinist telegram channels are ablaze with the newest "proof" that Poland is planning to invade Ukraine - Andrzej Duda saying that there will be no border between the two countries. Poor clowns can't comprehend that most of Europe doesn't have borders... and those countries achieved this incomprehensible borderless arrangement without invading each other. Some lessons to be learned there, if Russian chauvinists were capable of learning.

Says person who quotes Russian Defence Ministry, Kadyrov telegram and other Russian пoмoйкa as reliable sources.

For a long happy life until Russia will come to take another slice of Ukraine...

And how do you imagine such thing? All these countries sharing Ukraine into parts? It would be interesting to hear from your perspective what signs shows that it can happen. Because for me it looks like nothing more than poor Russian propaganda attempt to show that Ukraine is country without history and without future.
Most fun part about Moldova. They aren't capable to solve Transistria question and here they're cming to take slice of Ukraine.

all thingsshows about Russia unwilingness to negotiate. Basically Russia gave ultimatum to Ukraine to surrender, give whole Donbass and Luhansk, forget about joining NATO, ''denazify'' themselves, not matter what it means and they don't show any intentions to negotiate.

Yes. Also all other weapons and troops from Ukrainian territory. Thanks.


Many countries were parts of e.g. the British Empire. Things change. But if the US or Australia invades Solomon Islands you should definitely create a thread "US (or Australian) Invasion of Solomon Islands". I might even stop by to see how you derail it yourself with your deluded whataboutism and other fallacies.

I did not say anything about the Pope. I think that his thoughts on this matter are irrelevant at this point if you really need a comment from me.

As for the rest, you are comparing today's situation with Cold War. That explains why you consider Putin's actions valid - you live with him in the sixties. The US know it. The US is using it. There is no winner.

If you're going to use whataboutism, I think the United States committing genocide against the Native Americans would be more appropriate. Also, remember when you defend Russias actions by comparing them to those of other countries, you're also defending those other countries actions.

I think we will soon see how events will develop in the West of Ukraine, because until the complete liberation of Donbass this is not a paramount issue and there are many interested parties, including Poland, Romania, Hungary and even Moldova. I'm not even sure that the West of Ukraine is now subordinate to Kyiv.

Do you now mean that Russia has become a victim of external manipulation and is not to blame for the invasion of Ukraine? This is something new from you.

I'm not sure I understand the red thread of these two paragraphs correctly. Do you accuse the United States of unleashing an armed conflict in Ukraine in order to weaken Russia and Europe, or what?

I understand what unconditional means. Ukraine has already demonstrated a complete inability or unwillingness to negotiate, so I think a peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine will be concluded not as a result of successful negotiations, but as a result of the complete defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

I didn't say I didn't like Jews. I said that being a Jew is not a panacea for Nazism, and gave very specific examples of Nazi Jews who are fighting on the side of Ukraine right now (some of them have very eclectic tattoos that combine a swastika and a Star of David).

Do you doubt it? Lavrov touched Israel to the quick in passing, causing an (inadequately) violent reaction. Putin apologized for him and clarified the situation, having exhausted this conflict sucked from the finger. Perhaps now Israel will think before continuing to supply weapons and mercenaries to Ukraine, if its historical memory of the Holocaust is so dear to it. Good diplomacy.


I don't know how to formulate it. It seems strange to me that some people read and write from right to left, like Arabs and Jews. It also seems strange to me that some people read and write from top to bottom, like Chinese or Japanese. Is this a reason for me to feel superior because I read and write from left to right? I think not, although reading and writing from left to right personally seems to me definitely more familiar and convenient. And biodiversity is definitely important to me - that's why I'm willing to put up with the oddities of people of other nationalities, as long as they don't impose their cultural values ​​on me as the only correct ones.

Bravo, right so Russia removing all tanks is the only acceptable "deescalation", must've been really tough to propose such radical thought? Thanks for making my point, currently escalation is in everyone's best interest, so the war must go on.



And we're back to hypocrisy and double standards. Due to their proximity, US can have national security interests in Cuba, totally normal for NATO and Australia to have national interests in Solomon Islands etc... But why should Russia have national interests that spans to the country directly on it's border that speaks the same language and was part of the same country?? Then we go into, all countries are equal but some are more equal than others, and the ones that clear some imaginary level of democracy/freedom are allowed to absorb countries bordering other superpowers with beneficial offers, while others are not. Great policy, guaranteed to result in wars, so here we are.

Coming up next, everyone acts super surprised when China starts "special operations" in Taiwan after US decides to add Taiwan to it's "defense" pact. US will also be willing to supply Taiwan with any and all weapons till the last standing Taiwanese.

Any comment on why you believe the Pope is wrong as well, in seeing how such policies cannot possibly lead to peace?

Edit: wording

Oopsie:


"very experienced diplomat"

You say a lot of dumb things.  A lot.  But thinking that if Russia just 'leaves Kiev alone' then they will just naturally align with Russia is just...incredible. 

Let's put together all your hypothesis, so that we can appreciate the deepness of your thought:

- The West cannot offer billions for reconstruction, a solid diplomacy and a representative system, but just "degeneracy". I see.
- The dollar is going to collapse inevitably - after 90 years of dominance - despite being actually the rouble being downgrade during last 20 yr.
- And the most interesting one: Ukraine is going to forget the murdering of its people and the destruction of their infrastructure and "naturally fall" for Russia and China.

Ok... if all of that happens then you will be right.

As the war is going now, that "land bridge", AKA occupied territory belonging to Ukraine, is certainly anything but something that Putin has any certainty of holding. This war has just started, now is when the long term economic effects, sanctions and support kicks in.

Putin would do much better in finding a way to retreat and negotiate something sensible - not daydreaming crap.

Yeah, that's how the Nazis think. It's good that your words reflect what you really mean. How about we throw all the stupid, ignorant, and poorly educated people into concentration camps? Would that make you happy?

You still do not see it. Putin has been brought into a war that is a trap.

Even in the best possible outcome, as war is happening now, Russia is still a looser. The army has demonstrated that is unable to wage modern warfare, even having in front an army that had less resources. He has suffered a number of diplomacy backslashes that are not easy to overcome. He has made Europe consider raising the military spending (seriously, Europe raising military spending... unheard of) to the delight of the US. Who could ever have thought that Germany and Europe would ever consider decoupling from Russian oil and start the process of finding alternative sourcing for gas? What a victory for Putin!

I really hope your guys are not betting your bitcoin on anything like a surrender. US cannot be happier than seeing Putin bleed himself and send the your Russian soldiers to serve as test dummies for their latest toys, the sea crews to test their naval missile and combined arms tactics, Russian pilots to test the Starstreaks, tanks to test the Javelins... Meanwhile, the money that should be flowing to make Russia a better a place and the people who should be making Russia a more populated nation are being sent to die on a war that cannot be "won".

BTW, you do not seem to understand the concept of "unconditional", you may have read that in the official media I guess. Unconditional means "no conditions" - e.g. you do not get to keep any territory, nor army, nor government. It is all at the will of the victor - e.g. Japan after WW II so that you get the picture. I do not think you honestly believe that is going to happen.

Ok, so for now you do not like Jews (Hebrews should I say not to offend anyone?), you do not like the people who killed them either, you do not like Europe ("gayrope"?), the US... Sounds like the picture of a Russian supremacist (basically a Nazi). And you wonder why Ukraine did not want to play with you guys. Anyway, Putin is not challenging the world order, he is trying to be that order. Must be that all the countries (including Turkey!!) are ruled by the Israelis.

My questions is.. do you also feel superior to all Semitic races and cultures?

They are certainly influential in the US and in financial circles - that is where the other war, the one that is not about the "missile" but on how are you going to build that missile without microchips and how do you intend to pay for it, is happening and is going to get much worse. No need to kill all tanks, no need to have Ghost aviation ACEs - yet their are welcome.

I can see also some comments on Wikipedia not being a source. It is a good starting point, but you need to do the hard work: go to the references and see if you can form your opinion or question the article. But nah... much better to use a carpet-cancelling comment and get the sceptic-is-smarter free bonus.