Silver Wallets a new kind of physical storage for your bitcoin - page 11.

tspacepilot

legendary

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I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 04:51:26 PM

Clearly you are in a mood today to show everyone just how wrong I am, how smart you are, how my coin doesn't make any sense and how you proved it.
So congrats, I had the wrong understanding of the meaning of this sum (which I previously stated correct me if I'm wrong and that it was my understanding to my educational level as this is not my area of studies). You obviously are more educated in this area than I am.
The thing is, I still like the coin, the design, and will be moving forward with it.

Oh and thank you for pointing out the fact that these coins will be minted with an error. I guess now just like Casascius I have my own error coin (unintentionally) and both were do to incorrect or lack of letters. Weird how we are all human and all make mistakes huh?

Wink

Well, I'd characterize my mood as inquisitive as to the reference of this sum on your nice-looking silver coins. In trying to find out more, I'd characterize your response as defensive. Because I simply wanted to get to the bottom of it, I went and read the paper. I hope my clarification helped. Cheers.

Nightowlace

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 04:19:32 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 04:06:25 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 03:59:22 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 02:55:35 PM

Why does anyone memorialize anything? From war heroes to baseball players, from symbols to comic heros, from words to flowers, the sun, moon and stars? Because they like it, it means something, it has to do with something etc. After reading the white paper and understanding it to the point my education level can comprehend I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

Um, so it sounds like the emphasis is on "little" here.

And I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. Sounds like learning what it refers to is up to me. Cheers!

Ugh I have you a direct quote as to what it means from the white paper.

You can say "ugh" if you want, but your "direct quote" wasn't very informative. You vaguely mentioned an "infinite tail" of a distribution and "rearranging" something. You referred to a sum as an equation. An explanation of what it means would simply say what the values of g,k,lambda, refer to in context. I think it's quite okay for you to simply say "i don't know, it looks pretty". But pretending that you explained something isn't really helpful.

I said that here;

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 28, 2014, 05:37:08 PM

The equation is appealing to the eye

Here;

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 02:55:35 PM

I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

Clearly you are in a mood today to show everyone just how wrong I am, how smart you are, how my coin doesn't make any sense and how you proved it.
So congrats, I had the wrong understanding of the meaning of this sum (which I previously stated correct me if I'm wrong and that it was my understanding to my educational level as this is not my area of studies). You obviously are more educated in this area than I am.
The thing is, I still like the coin, the design, and will be moving forward with it.

Oh and thank you for pointing out the fact that these coins will be minted with an error. I guess now just like Casascius I have my own error coin (unintentionally) and both were do to incorrect or lack of letters. Weird how we are all human and all make mistakes huh?

Wink

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Ok, so then I went back to the paper and read the relevant section so I can go ahead and clarify for the purposes of posterity.

1) This does not have to do with the 51% attack. This section of the paper is about calculating the probability that a node can spend bitcoin and then maliciously include a transaction that reverses that spend in a subsequent block. The high-level observation is that the attacker necessarily has to start behind the blockchain because it has to wait for the first transaction to be included in a block before trying to maliciously undo it.

2) The "infinite distribution" referred to is a poisson distribution (a random distribution) so there is an infinite tail. The particular rearrangement just has to with manipulating the expression of the probability in such a way that there's not an infinite sum to calculate. By rearranging the sum, we can calculate a finite sum from 0 to k

3) It looks like the coin as printed actually has an error, Satoshi's paper has q= 'probability that he attacker will find the next block' whereas the coin has a 'g', which is undefined in Satoshi's paper.

Cheers!

TookDk

legendary

Activity: 1960

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One coin to rule them all

Quote from: elianite on June 28, 2014, 06:50:47 PM

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Absolutely, I live in a country where there is tradition to put all kind of historical stuff on the tail of the coins, everything from from bridges, statues, famous battles.
Content from Satoshis whitepaper on a bitcoin follows this idea. I can relate to Nightowlace's idea here.

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 04:06:25 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 03:59:22 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 02:55:35 PM

Why does anyone memorialize anything? From war heroes to baseball players, from symbols to comic heros, from words to flowers, the sun, moon and stars? Because they like it, it means something, it has to do with something etc. After reading the white paper and understanding it to the point my education level can comprehend I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

Um, so it sounds like the emphasis is on "little" here.

And I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. Sounds like learning what it refers to is up to me. Cheers!

Ugh I have you a direct quote as to what it means from the white paper.

You can say "ugh" if you want, but your "direct quote" wasn't very informative. You vaguely mentioned an "infinite tail" of a distribution and "rearranging" something. You referred to a sum as an equation. An explanation of what it means would simply say what the values of g,k,lambda, refer to in context. I think it's quite okay for you to simply say "i don't know, it looks pretty". But pretending that you explained something isn't really helpful.

Nightowlace

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 03:59:22 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 02:40:34 PM

Quote from: elianite on June 28, 2014, 06:50:47 PM

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Fair enough, I'm not saying it shouldn't be memorialized. I'm just wondering if the designer of the coin can comment on exactly what is being memorialized. So far all I've learned is 'something to do with the 51% attack'. But then again, I understand that I can go read the paper if I really want to understand.

Why does anyone memorialize anything? From war heroes to baseball players, from symbols to comic heros, from words to flowers, the sun, moon and stars? Because they like it, it means something, it has to do with something etc. After reading the white paper and understanding it to the point my education level can comprehend I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

Um, so it sounds like the emphasis is on "little" here.

And I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. Sounds like learning what it refers to is up to me. Cheers!

Ugh I have you a direct quote as to what it means from the white paper.

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 29, 2014, 02:55:35 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 02:40:34 PM

Quote from: elianite on June 28, 2014, 06:50:47 PM

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Fair enough, I'm not saying it shouldn't be memorialized. I'm just wondering if the designer of the coin can comment on exactly what is being memorialized. So far all I've learned is 'something to do with the 51% attack'. But then again, I understand that I can go read the paper if I really want to understand.

Why does anyone memorialize anything? From war heroes to baseball players, from symbols to comic heros, from words to flowers, the sun, moon and stars? Because they like it, it means something, it has to do with something etc. After reading the white paper and understanding it to the point my education level can comprehend I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

Um, so it sounds like the emphasis is on "little" here.

And I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. Sounds like learning what it refers to is up to me. Cheers!

Nightowlace

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2014, 02:40:34 PM

Quote from: elianite on June 28, 2014, 06:50:47 PM

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Fair enough, I'm not saying it shouldn't be memorialized. I'm just wondering if the designer of the coin can comment on exactly what is being memorialized. So far all I've learned is 'something to do with the 51% attack'. But then again, I understand that I can go read the paper if I really want to understand.

Why does anyone memorialize anything? From war heroes to baseball players, from symbols to comic heros, from words to flowers, the sun, moon and stars? Because they like it, it means something, it has to do with something etc. After reading the white paper and understanding it to the point my education level can comprehend I enjoyed this specific (formula, sum, equation, whatever it's called) and what it had to do with. I like that to the lamen eye it is complex, incomprehensible, and gives a little insight into the complexity of bitcoin.

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: elianite on June 28, 2014, 06:50:47 PM

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Fair enough, I'm not saying it shouldn't be memorialized. I'm just wondering if the designer of the coin can comment on exactly what is being memorialized. So far all I've learned is 'something to do with the 51% attack'. But then again, I understand that I can go read the paper if I really want to understand.

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 28, 2014, 05:37:08 PM

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 28, 2014, 03:39:06 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 19, 2014, 06:19:08 AM

What does the equation describe?

It's from the bitcoin white paper regarding 51% attack

Does look nice, but I'm also curious about the specifics of this sum. Why would we want to see it on the face of a silver bitcoin? Perhaps the designer can offer a comment.

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

It's the equation on rearranging to avoid summing the infinite tail of the distribution which would prevent (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology) or make it less likely for an attacker to be able to 51%. The equation is appealing to the eye, incorporates the complexity of bitcoin, and brings some substance into the design. We understand everyone's desire for bitcoin to go to the moon but it's also nice to step back and think about the complexity, the security, and the sheer innovation that is bitcoin. This is why we chose to incorporate something like this equation into the design.

I guess I need to go back to that paper to see this formula in context. I just want to note that this is not and equation (there's no equals sign), it's a sum. Also, it doesn't look like it's a sum to infinity. It seems to be a sum from z to k. Again, I guess I need to take a look at the paper for more detail, but what distribution? what infinite tail? The number of miners is always going to be finite.

elianite

legendary

Activity: 1377

Merit: 1134

The Cryptonumist

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

Coins traditionally display history and significant events/things. the 51% issue is a significant thing in Bitcoin and is worth memorializing on a silver coin.

Nightowlace

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: bitcoin_bagholder on June 28, 2014, 04:10:44 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 28, 2014, 03:39:06 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 19, 2014, 06:19:08 AM

What does the equation describe?

It's from the bitcoin white paper regarding 51% attack

Does look nice, but I'm also curious about the specifics of this sum. Why would we want to see it on the face of a silver bitcoin? Perhaps the designer can offer a comment.

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

It's the equation on rearranging to avoid summing the infinite tail of the distribution which would prevent (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology) or make it less likely for an attacker to be able to 51%. The equation is appealing to the eye, incorporates the complexity of bitcoin, and brings some substance into the design. We understand everyone's desire for bitcoin to go to the moon but it's also nice to step back and think about the complexity, the security, and the sheer innovation that is bitcoin. This is why we chose to incorporate something like this equation into the design.

bitcoin_bagholder

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 28, 2014, 03:39:06 PM

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 19, 2014, 06:19:08 AM

What does the equation describe?

It's from the bitcoin white paper regarding 51% attack

Does look nice, but I'm also curious about the specifics of this sum. Why would we want to see it on the face of a silver bitcoin? Perhaps the designer can offer a comment.

It's a rather odd feature to put on the coin. I don't agree with the decision.

Otherwise, nice looking coin!

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1078

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 19, 2014, 06:19:08 AM

What does the equation describe?

It's from the bitcoin white paper regarding 51% attack

Does look nice, but I'm also curious about the specifics of this sum. Why would we want to see it on the face of a silver bitcoin? Perhaps the designer can offer a comment.

TookDk

legendary

Activity: 1960

Merit: 1062

One coin to rule them all

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM

It's from the bitcoin white paper regarding 51% attack

Oh yeah

Great design.

Manfred Macx

full member

Activity: 205

Merit: 105

My silver wallet arrived! It's from the first batch of 100 coins (#63). I bought it from Yankee (BitInstant). It was a pleasure doing business with him since he is very patient and I was indecisive. Thank you!

Nightowlace

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Is anyone going to Bitcoin Chicago? Silver Wallets will have a booth set up. Stop by and say hello if you are, always great meeting people in person.

Dacm4n

sr. member

Activity: 363

Merit: 250

Quote from: Nightowlace on June 18, 2014, 06:58:06 PM

The dies for design #2 are currently being cut. We will be taking preorders shortly. Anyone who ordered a numbered coin from design #1 will have the option to purchase the same # they previously ordered, after that we will open it up to forum members.

Here is a sneak peak of design #2. This is the rendering from the mint.

Nice design.

miffman

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1005

PGP ID: 78B7B84D

The equation makes the coin! I'd definitely want one

icey

legendary

Activity: 1578

Merit: 1000

May the coin be with you..

Definatley getting this, beautiful design to be fair.
And thanks for staying loyal to the people who bought the first batch Wink

Topic: Silver Wallets a new kind of physical storage for your bitcoin - page 11. (Read 38749 times)