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Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack - page 30. (Read 136180 times)

legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1062656


Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)

"We" means community?

Who is short $42,000? The thief is never "short" of any money. It must be Bitcoinica customers.

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but the community doesn't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point the community is short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.


He's right! I plugged in community and it now makes perfect sense. I can't believe I have been so wrong on this issue. Will everybody forgive me? BlowBobs on the house.

~Bruno~ (ain't cackling!)
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical. A scammer sending you $0.01 by mistake shouldn't taint your entire bank account. I just have to make sure the sums are correct and Bitcoinica gets everything Chen Jianhai promised to pay back.

It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1012
Chen Jianhai is reading this thread. He just made a screenshot. Proof:



 Grin
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.

If Zhou's friend had a large amount of LR he wanted to convert then presumably he has the funds to retain a lawyer who can advise him about the wisdom of agreeing to such an arrangement.  His friend should certainly be made aware that his funds are now the subject of an AML investigation, though, before he's asked to agree to them being moved anywhere else or to receiving them back through an indirect means.  The more roundabout, intervening transactions there are between him giving the funds to Zhou to exchange and him receiving his funds back, the more it's going to look like money laundering to any investigator (especially if the source from which the funds are being returned can't be confirmed).

Quote
In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

Neither you nor I know whether AurumXchange can release funds which are the subject of an AML investigation and if so under what circumstances and to whom.  Whatever persuasive arguments you may believe you have for them releasing those funds, the only people they should be listening to regarding that are their own legal advisors and their AML regulator.  There is no reason whatsoever they should risk legal fall-out themselves for the convenience of others.  They most certainly didn't create this clusterfuck and the have every right to protect themselves first and foremost from the legal risks which the money launderer brought to their door step.

Quote
It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.

And often the whole account will be frozen until the legitimacy of all the funds in the account can be established.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

In the situation you are in I forbid you to retain anything at all as long there are liabilities to Bitcoinica customers. Your personal liabilities come second and I personally don't care.
In case you are behind all that (And I want to keep this option open) that move is just a smart way of circumventing AML-investigations. You also wouldnt be responsible to prove the legitimacy of these funds anymore. Comparing the total amount of returned vs. stolen funds that leaves still the possibility of you making a profit in this hack (hypothetical situation)
Also moving the risk of goverment seizure of your friends funds or lengthy unblocking procedure to Bitcoinica customers is just unfair. We as customers were not involved in money laundering YOUR FRIEND WAS so he has to take the risk!
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
There is more than a single person behind the user zhoutong. There is a ghost writer following the instructions of another person which dictates every answer. A single person could not express such astonishing English skills so well garnished with technical details.

There is enough contradictions in every response from zhoutong which indicates the information is consistently fictional.

Not one single character or description is factual.

A script is in place and the user behind the zhoutong avatar is only following the lines.

FTFY
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Why the plural? Is this just a Freudian slip or are there more hackers involved besides Chen?

Sorry. It was a typo.
hero member
Activity: 761
Merit: 500
Mine Silent, Mine Deep
I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Why the plural? Is this just a Freudian slip or are there more hackers involved besides Chen?
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.


Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.

If there is any investigation I would respond that the originally legitimate funds of $40k (which I can show proof to police) were transferred to Bitcoinica instead.

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical. A scammer sending you $0.01 by mistake shouldn't taint your entire bank account. I just have to make sure the sums are correct and Bitcoinica gets everything Chen Jianhai promised to pay back.
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10
I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.


Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1012
then make it public once the refund is done. Making this information public can in no way harm you. Why are you so averse to doing it? He's a criminal, and doesn't deserve your protection. Any of the criminals involved in this should already know: returning the funds doesn't mean this is over. This isn't over until justice has been served.

+1

...so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

LOL
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.
full member
Activity: 223
Merit: 100
(...)
I can do that, provided anyone from Bitcoinica can send me the data (claims platform isn't available any more) and also the written authorization. With the authorization the fund holding parties can get the frozen funds from Mt. Gox as well.

Also I suggest you to arrange this with Patrick Murck because handling claims may have serious legal implications.

Zhou, do you know if there has been a copy/backup of submitted claims ?
Or should customers submit it once again ?
Thanks for your time

I dont see why they would have lost the claims.

But if they did, that would be another EPIC fail for the intersango team... Hopefully the data from the claims is still here
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
(...)
I can do that, provided anyone from Bitcoinica can send me the data (claims platform isn't available any more) and also the written authorization. With the authorization the fund holding parties can get the frozen funds from Mt. Gox as well.

Also I suggest you to arrange this with Patrick Murck because handling claims may have serious legal implications.

Zhou, do you know if there has been a copy/backup of submitted claims ?
Or should customers submit it once again ?
Thanks for your time

I wanted to do exactly that last time but I forgot to. I hope Bitcoin Consultancy can provide that information as well as funds.
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
(...)
I can do that, provided anyone from Bitcoinica can send me the data (claims platform isn't available any more) and also the written authorization. With the authorization the fund holding parties can get the frozen funds from Mt. Gox as well.

Also I suggest you to arrange this with Patrick Murck because handling claims may have serious legal implications.

Zhou, do you know if there has been a copy/backup of submitted claims ?
Or should customers submit it once again ?
Thanks for your time
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Any of the criminals involved in this should already know: returning the funds doesn't mean this is over. This isn't over until justice has been served.

Regardless of who actually committed the MtGox heist, the proceeds were laundered through AurumXchange and Liberty Reserve.  Those businesses have their own best interests to consider and aren't necessarily going to drop this just because Bitcoinica customers would be satisfied with the funds being returned.  

Quote from: Zhou
Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.

I absolutely agree that he shouldn't be expected to provide any information to this community.  His details are only relevant for the purpose of proving the origin of the funds for the LR transactions and it's those conducting any AML investigation who need to satisfied as to the legitimacy of those funds, not this community.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
The Chinese police cannot be trusted, and you know that. If you don't make public all the information you have about this "chen jianhai", we will have to assume that he's just a made up person, and that you are the criminal.

You can assume anything you want. I can't satisfy you every time, sorry.

I have co-operated with all formal legal requests so far, and they all facilitate, not delay, the refunding process to Bitcoinica customers.

What benefit will you have if his information is public? Visit him in person and take a look at his relic collection? If it's not for violence I'll be surprised.

If you think I have legal obligation to reveal someone's privacy, ask your lawyer to talk to me.

My only priority right now is to refund Bitcoinica customers, which should have finished 2 months ago. Doing anything else will not help this process.



then make it public once the refund is done. Making this information public can in no way harm you. Why are you so averse to doing it? He's a criminal, and doesn't deserve your protection. Any of the criminals involved in this should already know: returning the funds doesn't mean this is over. This isn't over until justice has been served.

Justice or injustice?

If you want the justice and you are harmed, you should have reported to the police already.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502

As far as I remember aurumxchange froze the funds due to AML (?)

As Zhou claims the frozen funds belonged to a friend on whose behalf he was selling LR, I suspect that AurumXchange might not be willing to release the funds to either Zhou or to whoever ends up handling Bitcoinica refunds.  Those funds probably aren't going anywhere until their source can be established as legitimate and their true ownership determined.

Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.

I hope everyone can understand that. We have enough threats and attacks among ourselves and no one is going to co-operate with the community in this matter.
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