Taxless society idea - page 6. | Bitcointalksearch.org

tadpole_bitfrog

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Quote from: Tylev on August 26, 2019, 12:54:21 AM

How much humanity is developing, however, not a single state has been able to do without taxes. Taxes, as always, are sorely lacking to cover social needs and this periodically leads to shocks in almost all states.
The proposed measures are very difficult to understand, but in any case, they are not suitable for building a tax-free society. The advent of cryptocurrency will also not be able to solve this problem. Taxes are necessary in any society.

I agree with your point of view that no society can exist without taxes, which is very unlikely, because it will make it difficult for the government to solve domestic problems, cryptocurrencies up to this point, it is growing and expanding but it still cannot replace flat money or create a tax-free society.

DaftAjax

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Quote from: deisik on October 27, 2019, 06:00:26 AM

Small stores and shops can only survive if they can offer some unique product or service.

That's a thing with our society now, they feed mostly on what is unique--new things. But it does not last long as after months or years they move on to other things, well, (normally) people will never be satisfied. Another thing is that whenever bigger companies saw something unique that sells very well they will do anything in their power to buy it or rather take over its ownership.

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And it is not just about groceries as almost every industry gets severely affected in this manner. It is the same not only on the local level, but on the regional and national levels as well as previously successful companies are now unable to compete with multinational corporations going to smaller regional markets

I've seen something like this happen. Their solution is either focus only on specific areas and shutdown other branches or spread as much as possible.

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I wouldn't call that competition as to me it looks more the "slaughter of the innocents" and weeding out all possible competition (what monopolies habitually do all the time)

A monopoly doesn't help anyone except for themselves.

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Quote from: DaftAjax on October 27, 2019, 12:51:10 AM

Well, guess what, a somewhat the same situation happened here in my area

It's not surprising at all

I've seen that same situation repeat itself countless times in different places. Small stores and shops can only survive if they can offer some unique product or service. In my place many such stores had been closed a few years ago after big retailers showed up in the area

And it is not just about groceries as almost every industry gets severely affected in this manner. It is the same not only on the local level, but on the regional and national levels as well as previously successful companies are now unable to compete with multinational corporations going to smaller regional markets

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 27, 2019, 12:51:10 AM

AFAIK, isn't competition good for the economy?

I wouldn't call that competition as to me it looks more the "slaughter of the innocents" and weeding out all possible competition (what monopolies habitually do all the time)

DaftAjax

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Quote from: deisik on October 26, 2019, 01:03:32 PM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 26, 2019, 12:25:51 PM

Quote from: deisik on October 25, 2019, 07:08:35 PM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 25, 2019, 10:35:02 AM

Quote from: deisik on October 24, 2019, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

<....>

And it works in essentially the same way on a country as well as international level

So everyone has a part on it, I guess we can't point fingers on just one. As you said, it is a very complex problem to tackle--indeed it is, yet to even have a solution.

Well, guess what, a somewhat the same situation happened here in my area. A company (so-called PureGold, a large grocery store) just had a branch here like 2 years ago. But what they did was, the building they are currently on was the same building that a local grocery store was occupied. They "bought" the place. That local store doesn't really have expensive items, in fact, a lot of locals buy there. But when this company bought the place it was renovated (to their company design), then they had an "opening" of some sort and had lots of discounts. The store was very alive, the items were even cheaper (even after the discount event), heck even people from other towns go there now. And as you said, since they're so big, they have a lot of suppliers and a very efficient logistics. So now, other grocery stores are a bit endangered, well they still have (old) customers but newcomers(?), I don't think so. It was like, it's the only large grocery store in the area.

AFAIK, isn't competition good for the economy?

BChydro

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Quote from: bitzizzix on October 26, 2019, 11:05:57 AM

In my opinion tax is a mandatory right and for the benefit of the people and for the progress of the country

What happens if it is a corrupted country and why is there much progress in third world countries, people not paying their taxes Tongue

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Quote from: bitzizzix on October 26, 2019, 11:05:57 AM

and if Cryptocurrency will be taxed it must be in a legalized position.

Even if it is not legalized you have to pay your taxes if you are earning the profits according to the rule of the land.

Quote from: bitzizzix on October 26, 2019, 11:05:57 AM

and I will obediently pay taxes because everything aims at the progress and interests of the country so that it develops well in technology.

I highly doubt that all the tax money is used for the progress and development of a country. The amount of money wasted in warfare is far higher and the debt the nation holds because of these will be higher than serving and uplifting every citizen and it is the same everywhere.

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Quote from: DaftAjax on October 26, 2019, 12:25:51 PM

Quote from: deisik on October 25, 2019, 07:08:35 PM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 25, 2019, 10:35:02 AM

Quote from: deisik on October 24, 2019, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

<....>

Well, technically, they don't do anything illegal

At least, not until they get caught and found guilty in the court of law. These corporations (for example, so-called Big Pharma) can hire the best tax lawyers (or just best lawyers in general), and since it is assumed (and rightfully, I must add) that governments are not very efficient and effective overall (apart from being hostile to each other, which severely complicates things for them), we can plausibly expect the corporations to be a few steps ahead of any effort to bring them to justice, so to speak. If they can change whole governments in some countries, the question of money laundering becomes kinda irrelevant since who is to define what is money laundering and what is not?

So who is to blame, the government? the corporations? or the law?

Let's just admit that it is a very complex and hard to tackle problem. To keep things more specific, let's consider a real-life example which repeats itself in many countries with astonishing regularity. A big multinational retail corporation operating a chain of hypermarkets (think Walmart here) comes to town one day. Since it is huge, has a lot of suppliers in different parts of the world and highly efficient logistics, it can make prices very cheap and still book profits for itself (not even speaking of deliberate dumping)

Obviously, the local stores are quickly forced out of business, and people living in this town who were somehow involved in these small businesses, that is almost every adult there, are now jobless. So whose fault is this? People want to buy better and cheaper goods, which is understandable. But by doing that they are effectively destroying their local economy since the money that the Walmart-like retailer receives goes elsewhere and doesn't get reinvested locally simply because it makes no economic sense

And it works in essentially the same way on a country as well as international level

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Quote from: deisik on October 25, 2019, 07:08:35 PM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 25, 2019, 10:35:02 AM

Quote from: deisik on October 24, 2019, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

<....>

Well, technically, they don't do anything illegal

At least, not until they get caught and found guilty in the court of law. These corporations (for example, so-called Big Pharma) can hire the best tax lawyers (or just best lawyers in general), and since it is assumed (and rightfully, I must add) that governments are not very efficient and effective overall (apart from being hostile to each other, which severely complicates things for them), we can plausibly expect the corporations to be a few steps ahead of any effort to bring them to justice, so to speak. If they can change whole governments in some countries, the question of money laundering becomes kinda irrelevant since who is to define what is money laundering and what is not?

So who is to blame, the government? the corporations? or the law?

How ironic that just because lawyers know how the laws work on different countries, they can easily twist the law between their fingers, and to make it worse, it's their profession-- a lawyer. I just can't believe that this is happening right now. I understand that they want to make money (revenue) and make their investors smile and all that jazz, but isn't that just going to worsen the economy of a country (assuming all corporations actually do this)? Sure they provide jobs/services/products but if their entire goal is to just keep on making more money--that's just straight up capitalism.

Eugenar

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Quote from: Google+ on October 24, 2019, 09:24:02 AM

I think the idea of no tax is very lucrative for all countries because people do not need to give money anymore to the government and do not need to pay wealth tax, but I think if the country does not have tax payments then the country cannot develop, usually money from taxes will be used for development the country.

Basically, what is needed is a precise and regulated tax calculation, most of the time, we think of cryptocurrency and taxes, it is somehow difficult to have our products be sell with tax, but if we can develop an automatic tax calculating system, bitcoin and other cryptocurrency can be attached with tax, so government can still operate with funds needed to create and implement projects that the sole purpose is for the betterment of our selves and community.

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Quote from: meliodas on October 26, 2019, 02:41:01 AM

Quote from: xSkylarx on October 26, 2019, 12:55:16 AM

Quote from: error08 on October 24, 2019, 02:25:40 PM

The only problem with the idea is there is no way of any government in the world that could rely on cryptocurrency which they do not control like mentioned. For them, it's better to create their own digital cryptocurrency or digital fiat currency on the blockchain.

I think having no tax is a problem, taxes are being used and spent in many ways, such as making an infrastructure, providing free education and healthcare and many more, if tax will be remove I dont know where the funds will might be get. Tax is essential for a country development. Laws can legal cryptocurrency but I think with tax also, government funds are based on how much they get in taxes.

I agree. Tax is a must in every country because that is how one country will progress overtime. It is true that there will be also a tax for the cryptocurrency and we are just waiting for the regulation of the government. If there is no tax then we will be left behind by the advancement of the technology and our world will be still be poor.

In my opinion tax is a mandatory right and for the benefit of the people and for the progress of the country,
and if Cryptocurrency will be taxed it must be in a legalized position.
and I will obediently pay taxes because everything aims at the progress and interests of the country so that it develops well in technology.

meliodas

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Quote from: xSkylarx on October 26, 2019, 12:55:16 AM

Quote from: error08 on October 24, 2019, 02:25:40 PM

The only problem with the idea is there is no way of any government in the world that could rely on cryptocurrency which they do not control like mentioned. For them, it's better to create their own digital cryptocurrency or digital fiat currency on the blockchain.

I think having no tax is a problem, taxes are being used and spent in many ways, such as making an infrastructure, providing free education and healthcare and many more, if tax will be remove I dont know where the funds will might be get. Tax is essential for a country development. Laws can legal cryptocurrency but I think with tax also, government funds are based on how much they get in taxes.

I agree. Tax is a must in every country because that is how one country will progress overtime. It is true that there will be also a tax for the cryptocurrency and we are just waiting for the regulation of the government. If there is no tax then we will be left behind by the advancement of the technology and our world will be still be poor.

xSkylarx

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Quote from: error08 on October 24, 2019, 02:25:40 PM

The only problem with the idea is there is no way of any government in the world that could rely on cryptocurrency which they do not control like mentioned. For them, it's better to create their own digital cryptocurrency or digital fiat currency on the blockchain.

I think having no tax is a problem, taxes are being used and spent in many ways, such as making an infrastructure, providing free education and healthcare and many more, if tax will be remove I dont know where the funds will might be get. Tax is essential for a country development. Laws can legal cryptocurrency but I think with tax also, government funds are based on how much they get in taxes.

deisik

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Quote from: DaftAjax on October 25, 2019, 10:35:02 AM

Quote from: deisik on October 24, 2019, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair

In today's world this "reduction" can easily turn negative

And you heard it right, and I'm not kidding. First of all, global corporations can easily earn money in one place and pay taxes in a completely different one, different as in another country on a different continent. See where I'm getting at? In this fashion, the reduction is not about paying less as it is more about not paying anything at all in the given jurisdiction. The financial papers will only show losses according to local law

Further, this approach lets you not only evade taxes but actually ask for subsidies from the local government as you can hide your real income in another jurisdiction and show losses in the one where you find it instrumental for your business. This is a real thing and an annoying problem with multinational corporations. As you can see, they can easily turn from cash cows into vampires by sucking blood from national economies

I already know this was possible but didn't know that it is actually happening and that it exceeds what I've always known. In the end, tax laws weren't fair at all(well, I guess it's not fair from the very beginning). I actually thought that corporations/companies contribute much more to the economy(at least for international corporations/companies), I guess they only contribute what their products/services could provide. But isn't this also an example of money-laundering(with respect to tax that is)?

Well, technically, they don't do anything illegal

At least, not until they get caught and found guilty in the court of law. These corporations (for example, so-called Big Pharma) can hire the best tax lawyers (or just best lawyers in general), and since it is assumed (and rightfully, I must add) that governments are not very efficient and effective overall (apart from being hostile to each other, which severely complicates things for them), we can plausibly expect the corporations to be a few steps ahead of any effort to bring them to justice, so to speak. If they can change whole governments in some countries, the question of money laundering becomes kinda irrelevant since who is to define what is money laundering and what is not?

DaftAjax

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Quote from: deisik on October 24, 2019, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair

In today's world this "reduction" can easily turn negative

And you heard it right, and I'm not kidding. First of all, global corporations can easily earn money in one place and pay taxes in a completely different one, different as in another country on a different continent. See where I'm getting at? In this fashion, the reduction is not about paying less as it is more about not paying anything at all in the given jurisdiction. The financial papers will only show losses according to local law

Further, this approach lets you not only evade taxes but actually ask for subsidies from the local government as you can hide your real income in another jurisdiction and show losses in the one where you find it instrumental for your business. This is a real thing and an annoying problem with multinational corporations. As you can see, they can easily turn from cash cows into vampires by sucking blood from national economies

I already know this was possible but didn't know that it is actually happening and that it exceeds what I've always known. In the end, tax laws weren't fair at all(well, I guess it's not fair from the very beginning). I actually thought that corporations/companies contribute much more to the economy(at least for international corporations/companies), I guess they only contribute what their products/services could provide. But isn't this also an example of money-laundering(with respect to tax that is)?

error08

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The only problem with the idea is there is no way of any government in the world that could rely on cryptocurrency which they do not control like mentioned. For them, it's better to create their own digital cryptocurrency or digital fiat currency on the blockchain.

tambok

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Quote from: Silberman on October 24, 2019, 11:13:29 AM

Quote from: desticy on October 22, 2019, 11:09:39 AM

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

You cannot change human nature, it may seem easy to try to make people more charitable and to worry about others instead of themselves, but that is never going to work, everyone can see the benefits of working hard in order to obtain some money so you could spend it in whatever you want, but very few can see the benefits of working hard getting that money and then giving that money to someone else, this is one of the reasons of why communism will never work.

I agree, you should think of yourself first before trying to help others, I have learned from some financial experts stating that, it is okay to help people, but don't help them by giving them fish, but by giving them tools that they will use to fish. Also based on my experience, when I do have nothing at all, and no one helps me, that's my motivation to work harder and not to just seek help from other people.

Silberman

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Quote from: desticy on October 22, 2019, 11:09:39 AM

Money rules the world - it's true. Values of private property and private accumulation.
To change the world, you first need to change the values of people, they must live for each other and not for themselves,
in this case the course will be dominated by the development of a society that does not know diseases, hunger, local crises associated with local culture, and so on.

You cannot change human nature, it may seem easy to try to make people more charitable and to worry about others instead of themselves, but that is never going to work, everyone can see the benefits of working hard in order to obtain some money so you could spend it in whatever you want, but very few can see the benefits of working hard getting that money and then giving that money to someone else, this is one of the reasons of why communism will never work.

BonfireBob

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The first thing I thought about when saw this topic, is that no taxes means more money, yes, maybe, but from the other side, there will be no social wellness anywhere. In job, at the supermarket, at any place you will have no social wellness. If now you get hurt and/or need to go to a doctor you can do that very easily without paying most of the times because we have many free offers from the government. When paying taxes you kind of pay for your social and all the other kinds of wellness. Of course, when taxes are too high it's not good too.

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Quote from: DaftAjax on October 24, 2019, 09:06:30 AM

But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair

In today's world this "reduction" can easily turn negative

And you heard it right, and I'm not kidding. First of all, global corporations can easily earn money in one place and pay taxes in a completely different one, different as in another country on a different continent. See where I'm getting at? In this fashion, the reduction is not about paying less as it is more about not paying anything at all in the given jurisdiction. The financial papers will only show losses according to local law

Further, this approach lets you not only evade taxes but actually ask for subsidies from the local government as you can hide your real income in another jurisdiction and show losses in the one where you find it instrumental for your business. This is a real thing and an annoying problem with multinational corporations. As you can see, they can easily turn from cash cows into vampires by sucking blood from national economies

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I think the idea of no tax is very lucrative for all countries because people do not need to give money anymore to the government and do not need to pay wealth tax, but I think if the country does not have tax payments then the country cannot develop, usually money from taxes will be used for development the country.

DaftAjax

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Quote from: deisik on October 23, 2019, 03:41:35 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 22, 2019, 10:06:14 PM

Not paying taxes is illegal, a crime even. So are you saying that all "rich" people do such a thing? Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money, and how to earn more money

He probably meant something different

Rich people can hire expert tax lawyers so that they can avoid paying taxes in a quasilegal way by exploiting loopholes their lawyers find. Obviously, common people have neither experience (and time) to do that on their own nor money to hire someone who can do that on their behalf. In other words, rich people have way more options in this regard, and given their mentality (as you correctly point out), they won't have any scruples about using these options and tactics to their advantage whenever possible

Quote from: STT on October 24, 2019, 03:08:27 AM

Quote

Do you really think they don't pay their taxes because they're still "rich". They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money,

The point is that taxes hurt the poorest people most and for a variety of reasons. Somebody rich can place their money anywhere in the world quite easily. Just considering the scale of being rich means you can in many cases literally hire a manager, an accountant and various other measures to best address any tax regime. The poorest people can barely afford to pay the bus driver for the trip nevermind have a proper capital management system. High taxes dont work, if they at any point attempt to throw the majority of tax on the richest people then it will also fail as the richest are most able to divert capital over seas or to whatever method best avoids the tax.
I'd hope its not too far for people to realise taxes are always going to be paid off by the majority, almost nothing can stop that being the case. Attempts at extreme confiscation of capital also fail and deprive a country of its most talented labour and so on. The best economy is a competitive market place available to all, at least people are given the opportunity to thrive.

I appreciate the thorough explanation from both of you. And I also apologize if my statement is quite misleading. Because that is also what I really meant when I said, 'They are "rich" because they know how to manage their money'. But what I really want to point out is that, however rich people "dodge" tax by hiring tax-lawyers, managers and such--in the end they will still pay taxes, but as both of you mention, they will find a way just to reduce the amount they ought to pay, which is, the majority of people would say is unjust/unfair.

Quote from: deisik on October 23, 2019, 03:41:35 AM

Quote from: DaftAjax on October 22, 2019, 10:06:14 PM

That's their mentality, they don't have the same mentality as an ordinary citizen

Let's call it a capitalist mentality

I guess that's the right term.

Topic: Taxless society idea - page 6. (Read 2932 times)