The impact of bad crypto (DASH, SDC, etc). How much does math matter? - page 5.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 10:41:51 PM

Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 10:36:27 PM

What makes Bitcoin money is that people believe it is money. End of story.

Not end of story.

The reason they believe it's money is that they can see it's money.

On the other hand, with an obscured blochain they can't see f*ck all. (Hence the title "obscured"). So it's even less believable. The words emperor and clothes spring to mind Wink

I can see my balance and I can see my transactions and I know that the ring signitures work, so I don't need anyone (especially a wanabee economist) to tell me that I need to see other people's balances for it to be money. I think you missed the meeting where we discussed that the highest form of human functioning is to think in the abstract, to imagine concepts into being. As long as the cryptography checks out, I'm good. Don't need your seeing is believing concept of money to infringe on my right or anyone else's right to privacy.

toknormal

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Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 10:36:27 PM

What makes Bitcoin money is that people believe it is money. End of story.

Not end of story.

The reason they believe it's money is that they can see it's money.

On the other hand, with an obscured blochain they can't see f*ck all. (Hence the title "obscured"). So it's even less believable. The words emperor and clothes spring to mind Wink

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 10:29:59 PM

Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 10:17:25 PM

So do you think Monero's cryptography is broken

No more broken than SSL.

But SSL is not a store of value. It is a decentralised cryptographic messaging system. Invest in it if you like it.

The only thing that distinguishes a cryptographic messaging system from Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is a public blockchain and cryptographically obscurred blockchains are not.

Thats what makes Bitcoin money.

If it was not a public blockchain and everyone could not inspect every single address - regardless of whether they possesed a private key to that address or not - then it would not constitute (base) money.

What makes Bitcoin money is that people believe it is money. End of story. If you want to poke around and see everyone's balances and transactions like some financial perve, be my guest, but it's people like you that make me want to keep my transactions and balance as private as possible.

toknormal

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Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 10:31:08 PM

I don't care that I can do all sorts of chemical tests to verify the validity of the gold, I want to see how much each account has on a public blockchain.

Hey. You got me there - you'd better ask the holders Wink

TPTB_need_war

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Quote

No, high school math is good enough - 7 (31.8%)

Oh my.

smooth

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Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 09:14:20 PM

Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 08:55:04 PM

I'm asking to see the public blockchain, where everyone can see all the balances.

Do you realise you're talking about gold ?

Yes, I would like to see the public balances. Please post a link.

I don't care that I can do all sorts of chemical tests to verify the validity of the gold, I want to see how much each account has on a public blockchain.

toknormal

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Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 10:17:25 PM

So do you think Monero's cryptography is broken

No more broken than SSL.

But SSL is not a store of value. It is a decentralised cryptographic messaging system. Invest in it if you like it.

The only thing that distinguishes a cryptographic messaging system from Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is a public blockchain and cryptographically obscurred blockchains are not.

Thats what makes Bitcoin money.

If it was not a public blockchain and everyone could not inspect every single address - regardless of whether they possesed a private key to that address or not - then it would not constitute (base) money.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 09:55:57 PM

Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 09:24:04 PM

Did Monero's emissions and transactions suddenly become unverifiable?

They've always been unverifiable.

I get the feeling your idea of unverifiable is much different than mine. The same as your idea of privacy is different than mine. Or good cryptography. Or what constitutes fair distribution.

So do you think Monero's cryptography is broken or are using the "I don't understand it, so therefore no one will use it" attack/defense?

toknormal

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Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 09:24:04 PM

Did Monero's emissions and transactions suddenly become unverifiable?

They've always been unverifiable.

toknormal

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on April 23, 2016, 09:46:17 PM

fuse blown

Good effort but I think she sang it better than you.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Did Monero's emissions and transactions suddenly become unverifiable?

The reason I ask is that all I need or want is to know the supply is as stated and that my amount is secure and that I can send stuff without it being broadcast to the whole world. As long as Monero does that, it has all the money properties I want--seems kind of stupid to tell me I'm wrong about I want.

If you want centralized money that everyone can see, that's your business, just don't call it anything else--and don't tell me the instamine is redistributed because you read some market tea leaves.

toknormal

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Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 08:55:04 PM

Make up whatever you want, of course, just don't expect anyone else to care.

I do expect them to care.

Thats the difference between the view that you are expressing and that of what I'm posting here.

Just read your own post again:

Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 08:55:04 PM

I'm asking to see the public blockchain, where everyone can see all the balances.

Do you realise you're talking about gold ?

Nothing could be less obscured. It's lying around in the hills. An open secret. Analysed to death, has a place in the periodic table. If ever anyone even stumbled on a piece of gold there are a myriad of reference points for them to verify it. Even if you don't own it you can still verify it. It is what's known as a "bearer token" because after gold there is no further you can go in the chain of trust.

So it is with public blockchains. There is a reason why satoshi did not obscure the blockchain - even though anonymity was the priority - and that reason is plain as day to anyone who understands how gold acquired its value.

smooth

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Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 08:29:04 PM

Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 08:18:12 PM

I think you misread my message. I want to see the account balances of the gold 'public blockchain', not the atomic number.

Your trying to push the idea that because someone can hide a piece of gold under their bed, that means obscured blockchains can have "value".

No, I'm not. I'm asking to see the public blockchain, where everyone can see all the balances.

Quote

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that

I'm afraid that you making up your own concepts of 'monetary properties' doesn't work like that, with or without infographics. Make up whatever you want, of course, just don't expect anyone else to care.

toknormal

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Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 08:18:12 PM

I think you misread my message. I want to see the account balances of the gold 'public blockchain', not the atomic number.

You're trying to push the idea that because someone can hide a piece of gold under their bed, that means obscured blockchains can have "value".

That reminds me of my 6 year old daughter who thought because she had 6 coins in her piggy bank she could buy a house.

Unbacked monetary media take a very long time to garner individual trust, then public trust, then public consensus, then public endorsement. Only after that "right of passage" phase comes value anything like the status of gold.

The only reason gold gained any value in the first place was because it got kicked about in the open for thousands of years and was found to posses true monetary properties (which are very rare). But it was public consensus that ultimately endorsed its value. That led to hoarding.

But Gold never had any obscurity of its own. If it had done it would never had got past the value of sand.

smooth

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Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 08:16:45 PM

Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 07:47:20 PM

Just show me the public blockchain for gold. Where can I see all the account balances?

Gold is a public blockchain in its own right, not an obscured one. Identifiable out in the open, by atomic number, by anyone who cares to inspect it.

Gold futures on the other hand are not a public blockchain. They are contracts which you cannot see and are kept private due to the fact that they're anonymous. But then again, gold futures are tier 2 monetary media - a piece of paper that is backed by gold.

So even by that analogy:

Gold = Part of the "metals" public blockchain with address 79 in the periodic table that is inspectable by anyone
Gold futures = obscured blockchain that is only any use as long as its "backer" exist (the metal)

I think you misread my message. I want to see the account balances of the gold 'public blockchain', not the atomic number.

Where are they? Link or GTFO.

toknormal

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Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 07:47:20 PM

Just show me the public blockchain for gold. Where can I see all the account balances?

Gold is a public blockchain in its own right, not an obscured one. Identifiable out in the open, by atomic number, and by anyone who cares to inspect it.

Gold futures on the other hand are not a public blockchain. They are paper contracts which you cannot see and are kept private due to the fact that they're associated with an individual. But then again, gold futures are tier 2 monetary media - a piece of paper that is backed by gold.

So even by that analogy:

Gold = Part of the "metals" public blockchain with address 79 in the periodic table that is inspectable by anyone
Gold futures = obscured blockchain that is only any use as long as its "backer" (the public blockchain metal) exists

AlexGR

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Quote from: smooth on April 23, 2016, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on April 23, 2016, 04:45:21 PM

Mixin 0 wasn't too scientific though, was it? Roll Eyes

1. Who developed Cryptonote with unrestricted mix 0?

2. Who analyzed the issue and published the analysis of the problem (also with mix 1)?

3. Who developed and published a proposed fix prior to implementing and deploying it?

4. Who implemented and deployed a fix?

There's your answer.

My answers:

1. Cryptonote/Bytecoin
2. Monero
3. Monero
4. Monero, Boolberry (partially), and AEON

Wait, you cloned Bytecoin, with all its flaws, without any due diligence, consequently had to face the problems of the cloning and start patching these problems as you went ahead, and that's a "feature" instead of "bad crypto"?

smooth

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Quote from: toknormal on April 23, 2016, 07:28:57 PM

And the "real deal" is a public blockchain.

Just show me the public blockchain for gold. Where can I see all the account balances?

toknormal

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Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 04:33:52 PM

imagine if we had 3,700,000 coins locked up in a masternode scheme?

Then you'd actually be doing something useful.

Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 03:54:11 PM

You'll have to ask Shelby. My guess is he'll tell you before you get a chance to ask, but my point is that Evan runs away when he can't explain a failure

Thats because Evan is an authority on creating a cryptographic asset and Shelby isn't.

If Shelby were ever to try it for real he'd have his a*ss handed to him by mother nature (as I'm sure he already knows).

Evan is accountable to his coin holders, not his tyre kickers.

Quote from: generalizethis on April 23, 2016, 04:33:52 PM

Now the thread is completely derailed from the hs math versus cryptography

Agreed. And in that respect, watching promoters of obscured blockchains attack "real" crypto on security or ideological grounds is a bit like watching football fans yell instructions at the players after drinking several pints of beer.

Oops ! I detect an incoming infographic.

Topic: The impact of bad crypto (DASH, SDC, etc). How much does math matter? - page 5. (Read 7308 times)