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Topic: The impact of bad crypto (DASH, SDC, etc). How much does math matter? - page 6. (Read 7308 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Mixin 0 wasn't too scientific though, was it? Roll Eyes

1. Who developed Cryptonote with unrestricted mix 0?

2. Who analyzed the issue and published the analysis of the problem (also with mix 1)?

3. Who developed and published a proposed fix prior to implementing and deploying it?

4. Who implemented and deployed a fix?

There's your answer.

My answers:

1. Cryptonote/Bytecoin
2. Monero
3. Monero
4. Monero, Boolberry (partially), and AEON
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
Mixin 0 wasn't too scientific though, was it? Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Monerotards....  Roll Eyes

The Monerotards just can't ever admit that someone else could do anything they couldn't do and give proper credit and respect where it is due. Sigh.

And then they wonder why their shitcoin is going no where and those who have the talent to make it go somewhere are not motivated to join with their sick attitudes.

You guys are hilarious. Keep making excuses to deny reality but it won't help you in the real world.

Not even one thank you for pointing an egregious error in Shen's proposed solution which could have enabled me to crash your market price had I withheld the information and supplied it after you implemented a hard fork with the design error. Instead I get verbal diarrhea about senile rage. My and the community wide anger against Monerotards, is because of for example your Shen's condescending verbiage and now more of it from all you key persons in the Monerotard community and even the lead developer.

Cry Cry Cry

That's why when you are doing new design work, you carefully document and publish your designs and try to get people to read your paper and provide feedback. I don't know the details of whatever feedback TPTB provided there -- it may or may not have been helpful in particular -- but I know more generally that several qualified experts have also read it and helped to correct errors, clarify ambiguities, and improve the clarity of the presentation.  Yes, that is how you do science.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Unlike people wasting their time on forums mudslinging, Evan uses his time to code the next features of DASH.

If he sits here debating all day then we'd hear: "doesn't he have anything better to do, like code?"

If he codes and doesn't debate endlessly the (self-defeating - from a game theory perspective) scenario of ...jamming an instantx transaction after acquiring a large number of masternodes => "he run away".

You can spin it any way you want really. It doesn't matter.

If you think mudslinging is a good tactic for promoting Monero, then be my guest. You'll be actively contributing to defining what bad crypto is: Crypto that wants to rise not by virtue of its better characteristics, but by throwing mud at their opponents.

This is now, what? The 10th thread or so of "Monerotards" attacking DASH? Get a life. Or a better coin. Then the market will appreciate it, if it becomes such. You won't get any value from the market without providing value to the coin. Even if DASH never existed, Monero would still be stuck. Contemplate that for a change.



You couldn't spin the narrative away from Evan's shortcomings, so you're going to take your ball and what? I guess the apple doesn't fall from the Dev. Now, as for mudslingin', you just threw a hissy about Monero's mudslinging while calling us Monerotards, and while your quoting someone to do it, you're still doing it. I'd rather not get into a hypocrisy debate, but grow the fuck up. We're all big boys here and should be able to take it as well as we dish it--but I'm sure you're preaching the anti-mudslinging mantra to Tok, Ceti, and Macrochip.

As far as markets go,  given Monero's volume compared to Dash's, I think we are doing just fine--imagine if we had 3,700,000 coins locked up in a masternode scheme?

Now the thread is completely derailed from the hs math versus cryptography, but seeing how Evan isn't good at hs math, maybe the thread should ask if middle school math is good enough?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
Unlike people wasting their time on forums mudslinging, Evan uses his time to code the next features of DASH.

If he sits here debating all day then we'd hear: "doesn't he have anything better to do, like code?"

If he codes and doesn't debate endlessly the (self-defeating - from a game theory perspective) scenario of ...jamming an instantx transaction after acquiring a large number of masternodes => "he run away".

You can spin it any way you want really. It doesn't matter.

If you think mudslinging is a good tactic for promoting Monero, then be my guest. You'll be actively contributing to defining what bad crypto is: Crypto that wants to rise not by virtue of its better characteristics, but by throwing mud at their opponents.

This is now, what? The 10th thread or so of "Monerotards" attacking DASH? Get a life. Or a better coin. Then the market will appreciate it, if it becomes such. You won't get any value from the market without providing value to the coin. Even if DASH never existed, Monero would still be stuck. Contemplate that for a change.

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
So the errors or "errors" that TPTB indicate only ...matter depending the various time-space coordinates, and his likes, or dislikes, at any given point within that 4-dimensional array.

Sounds legit.

You'll have to ask Shelby. My guess is he'll tell you before you get a chance to ask, but my point is that Evan runs away when he can't explain a failure. Shen actually argued with Shelby for days, but then again, Shen knew he was right and didn't need to run.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
So the errors or "errors" that TPTB indicate only ...matter depending the various time-space coordinates, and his likes, or dislikes, at any given point within that 4-dimensional array.

Sounds legit.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
Monerotards....  Roll Eyes

The Monerotards just can't ever admit that someone else could do anything they couldn't do and give proper credit and respect where it is due. Sigh.

And then they wonder why their shitcoin is going no where and those who have the talent to make it go somewhere are not motivated to join with their sick attitudes.

You guys are hilarious. Keep making excuses to deny reality but it won't help you in the real world.

Not even one thank you for pointing an egregious error in Shen's proposed solution which could have enabled me to crash your market price had I withheld the information and supplied it after you implemented a hard fork with the design error. Instead I get verbal diarrhea about senile rage. My and the community wide anger against Monerotards, is because of for example your Shen's condescending verbiage and now more of it from all you key persons in the Monerotard community and even the lead developer.

Cry Cry Cry

He has since changed his opinion of Shen and admitted he's a more than capable cryptographer--his opinion of Evan has gotten worse over time, but nice attempt to change the subject.  Roll Eyes

What were talking about, oh how Evan fails hs math and runs away when it's pointed out to him.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
Monerotards....  Roll Eyes

The Monerotards just can't ever admit that someone else could do anything they couldn't do and give proper credit and respect where it is due. Sigh.

And then they wonder why their shitcoin is going no where and those who have the talent to make it go somewhere are not motivated to join with their sick attitudes.

You guys are hilarious. Keep making excuses to deny reality but it won't help you in the real world.

Not even one thank you for pointing an egregious error in Shen's proposed solution which could have enabled me to crash your market price had I withheld the information and supplied it after you implemented a hard fork with the design error. Instead I get verbal diarrhea about senile rage. My and the community wide anger against Monerotards, is because of for example your Shen's condescending verbiage and now more of it from all you key persons in the Monerotard community and even the lead developer.

Cry Cry Cry
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
I've seen the discussion between Evan and TPTB_ which went something like "oh this could be lowered to 0.% of transactions even if the attacker held XXX masternodes", and then after some back and forth it degraded to "Oh the masternodes are illegal in the usa, the financial authorities this, and that" etc etc.


Not even. Evan asserted that tptb had miscalculated something and ran away after tptb corrected him. The same thing happened when I confronted Evan about X11--though I had some help from Shelby on understanding the problem.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1001
^What do you mean "broken game theory"?

I can understand Anonymint! I had similar thoughts like him!
I mean take clothes for example. Some people seem to think they're a good idea, but I -being the unsung genius of our time- recognized after painstaking analysis a simple but glaring failure of clothes everybody seems to have ignored: They don't protect you from meteorite impacts!

Now don't try to distract from this gigantic design error by citing "probability" or similar nonsense! It doesn't change the fact that anyone hit by a meteorite is going to die even though he or she was wearing clothes! That's why I decided to stay naked for the rest of my life, because it's not going to make any difference when the meteorites strike!

Now give me money so I can pay medical bills! For some reason I keep getting sick!

Genius logic..
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
I've seen the discussion between Evan and TPTB_ which went something like "oh this could be lowered to 0.% of transactions even if the attacker held XXX masternodes", and then after some back and forth it degraded to "Oh the masternodes are illegal in the usa, the financial authorities this, and that" etc etc.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Quote
Was there any peer review of the InstantX white paper whatsoever? Was TPTB the first one to catch the error 1+ years later?

The "error" involves broken game theory for the attack vector.

I'm referring to the "high school math error". That's not game theory, it is arithmetic.

(Of course game theory would also be a very legitimate topic for peer review, but that wasn't what I was asking.)
sr. member
Activity: 465
Merit: 250
^What do you mean "broken game theory"?

I can understand Anonymint! I had similar thoughts like him!
I mean take clothes for example. Some people seem to think they're a good idea, but I -being the unsung genius of our time- recognized after painstaking analysis a simple but glaring failure of clothes everybody seems to have ignored: They don't protect you from meteorite impacts!

Now don't try to distract from this gigantic design error by citing "probability" or similar nonsense! It doesn't change the fact that anyone hit by a meteorite is going to die even though he or she was wearing clothes! That's why I decided to stay naked for the rest of my life, because it's not going to make any difference when the meteorites strike!

Now give me money so I can pay medical bills! For some reason I keep getting sick!
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
We are talking about ...jamming a transaction, after spending a shitload of money. And that's to jam 0.x% of instantx transactions that at worst will be confirmed 150seconds later per the casual block confirmation... that doesn't make any sense.

If it's a valid game theory scenario, and makes sense for the attacker, we'll see it happen. I don't see it happening.

I was talking about darksend spying, which you can't see happening, but is all but inevitable (and the only way out there is essentially an accidental miracle) given the incentives.

Well, the more you mix, the lower the probabilities of bad actors affecting you. That's pretty much the same across the board, in all mixing scenarios, including Cryptonote mixin settings.

I've already explained the critical difference between the two. One has an ongoing cost to bad actors, the other does not.

You are leaving aside multiple costs for the bad actor. Devaluation for the coin by harming it, inflation costs for the holder (which are only partially mitigated by masternode rewards, yet maxcoins is >3x of current supply), mass acquiring costs that lead the price upwards (it's not the same, in terms of market-prices, buying 100 dash and 400.000 dash to buy 400MNs), etc.

Quote
The lack of any quantifiable cost means is that attacks are plausibly unbounded. More mixing will not save you.

If you involve 1 MN for mixing, and 10% of them are crooked, you have 10% of being deanonymized by hitting the crooked MN.
If you go in 2 rounds, with 2 different MNs, your chances go to 10% of 10%.
In the third round you have 10% of 10% of 10% chance.
...etc etc.

Multiple round mixing was designed specifically to address the bad actor scenario.

Quote
Was there any peer review of the InstantX white paper whatsoever? Was TPTB the first one to catch the error 1+ years later?

The "error" involves broken game theory for the attack vector.

If we are just trying to find theoretical "dangers" but ignoring the underlying game theory, then Bitcoin and all crypto are already dead. They aren't because they are based on game theory, costs and rewards for the attacker etc.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188

For those just tuning in, you should know that this guy is responsible for the brilliant statement of

A bit desperate.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud

i feel like something profound is being communicated,
yet i'don't have the foggiest of clues :?

Don't worry, you're in good company Wink


Why are there guys who try make simple things sound as complicated as possible to obscure the truth and there are guys who try to make complex things as simple as possible to reveal the truth?


The visibility of the transactions in the blockchain enables anyone and everyone to confirm the validity of the ledger. Cryptonote does not have this visibility, therefore the validity of the transactions cannot be confirmed, which means there is no independent way of verifying that the implementation or the protocol have not been broken.

It could be broken, we dont know and we have no way of showing that it is not being exploited right now.

That's not true. You can verify Monero's coinbase as you do in Bitcoin.

Yes, but not the rest of the chain unfortunately.

Not sure what you're talking about, even when CT is implemented, you can still validate the coin total.


"[–]fluffyponyzaXMR Core Team 3 points 2 months ago

"So, having only the blockchain data, is it possible to mathematically prove that all blocks inside followed the rules?"

Yes - read gmaxwell's write-up on CT and you'll see that amounts can still be verified.

To illustrate it as simply as I can: imagine if every transaction input was 1000 XMR. But, using ring signatures, you mix your real input of 55 XMR with a bunch of other ones that adds up to 1000 XMR. Analysing the blockchain we can still verify that it adds up to 1000 XMR, but we can't tell which value is yours."


hero member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 655
this was an informative topic over all i didn't know a couple of these things that happened.

but generally i don't care that much about these things that is why i haven't heard about them. i am mostly into bitcoin and follow it closely.

so altcoins for me are just a way to earn some money from the pumps and trade them.

although i would be lying if i said i wasn't interested in altcoin at all, there are 1-2 projects that really interest me and i follow them (i am not naming them to prevent hate Cheesy) but there is always some good projects out there. and as long as they are fixing theirs issues i am fine with it.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188

i feel like something profound is being communicated,
yet i'don't have the foggiest of clues :?

Don't worry, you're in good company Wink
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