The Lightning Network FAQ - page 7. | Bitcointalksearch.org

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 07, 2023, 08:01:08 PM

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.

Nope. Just tried it out though and whole-heartedly agree. Cheesy

It's a nice idea and I believe something like this exists in fiat-land already, but it would be great to be able to quickly commission profile pictures or similar, for sats over Lightning.

Sadly as of now, it seems to be a bit buggy. Let's check back on it in a few months.

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1176

Merit: 647

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.
Check here:
https://stacker.news/items/118925

and here:
https://artisats.com/

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 19, 2022, 08:50:02 AM

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

Still off-topic. I was talking about how a flood of closed channels doesn't motivate more users to close their channels.

You guys are talking about the downsides of running a node in general; I don't see the connection to the 'resembles a crashing altcoin' comment and matching graph further above.

Wind_FURY

legendary

Activity: 2898

Merit: 1823

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 02:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 02:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

Sure; but I don't see how that relates to the discussion.
Since the value of one BTC on Lightning is equal as on L1 (as it's simply locked in a multisig), node operators' incentive for closing channels (which you described) doesn't correlate with other operators closing their channels.

The supply / demand dynamic here is completely different than when a shitcoin is going down; because as people sell, it loses more value, so you're pressured to also sell, further lowering the coin's value.
Meanwhile if LN operators start closing channels, they don't change Bitcoin's value; no coins are bought or sold, only transactions are published on-chain. There is no transfer of value between BTC and something else.

Therefore Lightning channels getting closed don't lead to more channel closings in an accelerating, avalanche-type manner.

PrimeNumber7

copper member

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1899

Amazon Prime Member #7

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 6231

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: n0nce on December 18, 2022, 07:54:51 PM

Quote from: DaveF on December 18, 2022, 07:28:37 PM

Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.

Are there still reachable nodes in Hetzner's IP space? In that case, the ToS update seems hard to enforce, doesn't it.. Grin

Many reachable nodes, check the post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5429901

I have been playing a bit more over the last hour and have connected more LN peers in their IP space with no issues and running addnode and the IPs for a bunch of the core nodes running in Hetzner IP space added them with no problem.

At this point I am convinced it's something that blipped either with their routing or some other routing someplace and nothing more. When I say routing I am talking about IP routing not LN routing.

-Dave

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 18, 2022, 06:38:43 PM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

I think the problem is much bigger and it's connected with Hetzner shutting down every nodes related with cryptocurrencies and that drop on chart is representing 10,000 Bitcoin Lightn.ng Nodes.
One member posted this information today on forum, and I can't be totally sure about this, but I remember hearing this news about Hetzner recently.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The hetzner blanket ban on crypto is taking further effect, in accordance to their terms of service. In the last 3 days, 10,000 bitcoin lightning network nodes were cut from the network. It is very likely that this is due to continued enforcement of Hetzner TOS upon its customers.

I don't think that's related at all. Again; those nodes are still reachable by every other network explorer; plus, Hetzner didn't have that many locations, servers and thus probably also Bitcoin / Lightning nodes, so far. They are only now starting to expand to America and elsewhere.

Also, that ToS update was months ago; late spring, early summer.

Quote from: DaveF on December 18, 2022, 07:28:37 PM

Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.

Are there still reachable nodes in Hetzner's IP space? In that case, the ToS update seems hard to enforce, doesn't it.. Grin

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 6231

Crypto Swap Exchange

Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.
Since the only thing that I can say is that there is no issue with nodes on that platform from where I am sitting (and I hate using *I* since that is a really small sample set).

At a guess it's either a routing / peering issue between Hetzner and parts of the internet. OR, since some places are not seeing the drop, it could be the connections from bitcoinvisuals and lookintobitcoin.com to the rest of the world.

-Dave

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

Cashback 15%

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

I think the problem is much bigger and it's connected with Hetzner shutting down every nodes related with cryptocurrencies and that drop on chart is representing 10,000 Bitcoin Lightn.ng Nodes.
One member posted this information today on forum, and I can't be totally sure about this, but I remember hearing this news about Hetzner recently.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The hetzner blanket ban on crypto is taking further effect, in accordance to their terms of service. In the last 3 days, 10,000 bitcoin lightning network nodes were cut from the network. It is very likely that this is due to continued enforcement of Hetzner TOS upon its customers.

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

Cashback 15%

Does anyone have more information what is happening with Lightning Network capacity?
Either this is some bug related with lookintobitcoin website or Bitcoin Lightning Capacity dropped sharply, and this chart looks like typical shitcoin going to zero :/
I noticed some drops on other website that tracks LN capacity but nothing this drastic like on lookintobitcoin website.

https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/lightning-network-capacity/

This is chart on bitcoinvisuals.com:

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 11, 2022, 03:37:49 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 10, 2022, 08:24:22 PM

[...]

By default it doesn't encrypt states, but isn't this trivial to do in theory? You could derive the first public key of your HD wallet (or use the public key of the corresponded hsm_secret if used as private key) and do ECIES.

I'm neither in favor of third parties, but this isn't about being reliant on third parties (with the accepted sense of the term). It's just that I trust their operation more than I trust my drives (but I don't trust them to keep it unencrypted).

This is a good idea! It would actually be possible to implement this into the backup plugin or fork it and call it encrypted-backup plugin; just adds encryption and ability to upload to cloud providers. Other than that, the functionality would stay the same.

I'm willing to give it a try myself, it's just I'm a bit booked out right now.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on December 10, 2022, 08:24:22 PM

[...]

By default it doesn't encrypt states, but isn't this trivial to do in theory? You could derive the first public key of your HD wallet (or use the public key of the corresponded hsm_secret if used as private key) and do ECIES.

I'm neither in favor of third parties, but this isn't about being reliant on third parties (with the accepted sense of the term). It's just that I trust their operation more than I trust my drives (but I don't trust them to keep it unencrypted).

n0nce

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 5818

not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 10, 2022, 06:56:45 AM

In which manner do you guys back up your C-Lightning node? I've thought of connecting a separate USB to the Raspberry Pi, but I haven't find the time, and the money I'm risking aren't much. I've backed up the hsm_secret obviously, because it can be done on paper. Is encrypted cloud back-up an option? I've thought of sending my channel states encrypted to some cloud service as well; sometimes, you trust the service more than your hard drives.

I do it as described in my guide.
The disk is just a local NAS network share (redundant), and you shouldn't upload to a cloud, because...

Quote from: https://lightning.readthedocs.io/BACKUP.html#sqlite3-wallet-main-backup-and-remote-nfs-mount

Do note that files are not stored encrypted, so you should really not do this with rented space (”cloud storage”).

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

In which manner do you guys back up your C-Lightning node? I've thought of connecting a separate USB to the Raspberry Pi, but I haven't find the time, and the money I'm risking aren't much. I've backed up the hsm_secret obviously, because it can be done on paper. Is encrypted cloud back-up an option? I've thought of sending my channel states encrypted to some cloud service as well; sometimes, you trust the service more than your hard drives.

The backup plugin doesn't seem suggested according to the dev team:

Quote

This has the advantage compared to the backup plugin below of requiring exactly the same amount of space on both the main and backup storage. The backup plugin will take more space on the backup than on the main storage. It has the disadvantage that it will only work with the SQLITE3 backend and is not supported by the PostgreSQL backend, and is unlikely to be supported on any future database backends.

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1176

Merit: 647

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Anyone interested in opening a dual funded channel (CLN) depending on the capcity?

In the meantime I decided to open a channel to someone! Offer is off! :p

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1176

Merit: 647

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

I think I found (actually someone sent me) a very interesting article about how to improve success in LN and our nodes in terms of forwarding payments!

Read here and let me know your opinions:
https://blog.bitmex.com/the-power-of-htlc_maximum_msat-as-a-control-valve-for-better-flow-control-improved-reliability-and-lower-expected-payment-failure-rates-on-the-lightning-network/

I quote the abstract just to increase the interest in the read:

Quote

Abstract: Valves are an important tool for flow control in fluid or gas networks. We investigate the possibilities to set up valves on the Lightning Network to improve flow control and reduce expected payment failure rates. We show that good asymmetric choices for `htlc_maximum_msat` on a channel can reduce the expected payment failure rate significantly. We assume that the potential benefits from carefully selecting `htlc_maximum_msat` as a valve seem not to be fully exploited by routing node operators and Lightning Service Providers yet to optimize their flow control and improve the reliability of their channels. We analyze the power of valves on the Lightning Network mathematically by using Markov Chains. These can be used to model the uncertainty about the liquidity in a channel that arises from drain in the depleted channel model. Using these techniques we show theoretically that properly using valves may statistically lead to a more balanced channel and expected payment failure rates drop from two digit numbers below 3%. We provide two experimental algorithm ideas and encourage Lightning node operators to investigate the potentials from utilizing this tool that is already being shipped with the protocol.

CryptKeeper

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1055

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3131

IMPORTANT: LND users should update their nodes to either v0.15.4-beta or v0.14.5-beta. You can learn more about the fixed vulnerability here.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 06, 2022, 01:42:33 PM

I'm just reminding this, because I honestly never understood what was the purpose of all this hassle and bustle. Funds' restoration should be rather trivial thing to do.

Sorry about that! I have been extremely busy with my new job. I will try to find some spare time this weekend!

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 7. (Read 32058 times)