The Lightning Network FAQ - page 8. | Bitcointalksearch.org

n0nce

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on March 19, 2023, 06:40:11 PM

One other question.

Was your first question sufficiently answered / cleared up? Not sure because of your edits.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on March 19, 2023, 06:40:11 PM

Anyone knows what value to set to htlcmax to make it "default"? Would it be the total capacity of the channel or maybe only the outgoing capacity?

According to the docs ^[1], by default there is 'no effective limit' except the channel capacity.

So if you want to set it to 'default', simply enter something like 1000BTC (in satoshis); Lightning should just replace that value with your channel capacity and throw that warning. You could also check your channel capacity and set it to that value.

Quote from: https://lightning.readthedocs.io/lightning-setchannel.7.html?highlight=htlcmax

warning_htlcmax_too_high: The requested htlcmax was greater than the channel capacity, so we set it to the channel capacity

[1] https://lightning.readthedocs.io/lightning-setchannel.7.html?highlight=htlcmax

darkv0rt3x

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One other question.

A couple of weeks ago I tried to play a little with htlcmax and htlcmin of my Core Lightning node because I was told that setting lower htlcmax could help nodes keeping more balance over more time in one of the sides of the cahnnel and avoid to rebalance so often. So, I changed some of these values but now I wanted to set them back to the defaults!
Anyone knows what value to set to htlcmax to make it "default"? Would it be the total capacity of the channel or maybe only the outgoing capacity?

darkv0rt3x

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 17, 2023, 03:57:46 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on March 17, 2023, 03:32:03 PM

[...]

What you describe is called channel reserve. It's the reserve both partners agree to keep as long as the channel will last. It exists to insure disincentive. If you're forced to keep 1% of your channel (for example) you will never publish an older state, even if you only have that one reserve on your side, because you'll lose it. If there was no such reserve, you'd have nothing to discourage you from publishing an older state if you had no receiving capacity, because you'd have nothing to lose.

I have not ever come across with the term "dust limit" on lightning, but I believe it has to do with the prevention of unimportant transactions (e.g, 1 sat). It only exists on-chain as far as I'm concerned.

Hum, ok. I think I understand the channel reserve.
And I've been reading through Bitcoin mailing list and dust limit seems to be only related to on-chain transactions and to avoid spammy/empty UTXOs into blocks. But if you, in Core Lightning, run lightning-cli listpeers , there will be a field in the output with the dust limit. This then should be related to the dust limit of the funding TxID that opened the channel?

BTW, the only thing really useful that I found about dust limit was this: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-August/019310.html

Edited;
And following my other post, can we forward payments of a value lower than the channel_reserve? Because I remember when I started with LN, of a problem (not sure if it was opening/closing a channel or forwarding payments) that was related to a bug with the dust limit calculation in Core Lightning!

Edited 1;
The issue was with opening a channel back in 2020. I found the issue that I discovered (I think by accident) back then and fixed by niftynei:
https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/4140

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on March 17, 2023, 03:32:03 PM

[...]

What you describe is called channel reserve. It's the reserve both partners agree to keep as long as the channel will last. It exists to insure disincentive. If you're forced to keep 1% of your channel (for example) you will never publish an older state, even if you only have that one reserve on your side, because you'll lose it. If there was no such reserve, you'd have nothing to discourage you from publishing an older state if you had no receiving capacity, because you'd have nothing to lose.

I have not ever come across with the term "dust limit" on lightning, but I believe it has to do with the prevention of unimportant transactions (e.g, 1 sat). It only exists on-chain as far as I'm concerned.

darkv0rt3x

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Hi.

I have a couple of questions about some of the terminology used in LN. Namelly in Core Lightning implementation.
When channels are created, there is a small percentage of the channel capacity that is "locked" (is this the correct terminology???) that is called channel reserve, yes? Or is it the dust limit?

I would like someone to clear my mind about these 2 terminologies and give me a light explanation about the 2 of them! What each one is used for, how they are used and when they are useful, etc!

Thanks

n0nce

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Quote from: cygan on March 13, 2023, 12:55:44 PM

here is the official tweet of the rtl app (a web-ui for your lnd/c-lightning/eclair node/s) with the announcement of a new update which can be downloaded at the following link: https://github.com/Ride-The-Lightning/c-lightning-REST/releases/tag/v0.10.2

https://twitter.com/RTL_App/status/1635064065105215488

Seems like just a c-lightning-REST update (no update to the UI, just the underlying API). I'll update my stuff later today, nonetheless.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on March 14, 2023, 09:51:06 AM

did the new CLN/c-lightning release come out yet?

v23.02.2 was released '13 hours ago'.

Carlton Banks

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did the new CLN/c-lightning release come out yet?

cygan

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icarus-cards.eu

here is the official tweet of the rtl app (a web-ui for your lnd/c-lightning/eclair node/s) with the announcement of a new update which can be downloaded at the following link: https://github.com/Ride-The-Lightning/c-lightning-REST/releases/tag/v0.10.2

https://twitter.com/RTL_App/status/1635064065105215488

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: fillippone on February 21, 2023, 05:35:30 AM

Breez released their first Lightning SDK:

Lightning for Everyone in Any App: Lightning as a Service via the Breez SDK

Quote

The open-source Breez SDK enables developers to integrate Lightning and bitcoin payments into their apps with zero learning curve or technical expertise. It’s an end-to-end, non-custodial, drop-in solution powered by Greenlight, including a built-in LSP, on-chain interoperability, fiat on-ramps, and other services users and operators need.

With these high level instruments developer can concentrate on their product without having to understand the LN protocol in its finest details.
I guess this and the Strike API release will turbo charge the deveopment of new powerful tools to improve the LN UX!

Is it in closed beta? Because it sure looks like it.

Anyway it looks like something that can be integrated into mobile apps (not sure what the other two categories of SDK are for, but at least one of them says "Design Partner" which tells me is for people who want to improve the SDK) but it's not entirely clear how you'd insert this SDK into a desktop app or a web app.

fillippone

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Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23

Breez released their first Lightning SDK:

Lightning for Everyone in Any App: Lightning as a Service via the Breez SDK

Quote

The open-source Breez SDK enables developers to integrate Lightning and bitcoin payments into their apps with zero learning curve or technical expertise. It’s an end-to-end, non-custodial, drop-in solution powered by Greenlight, including a built-in LSP, on-chain interoperability, fiat on-ramps, and other services users and operators need.

With these high level instruments developer can concentrate on their product without having to understand the LN protocol in its finest details.
I guess this and the Strike API release will turbo charge the deveopment of new powerful tools to improve the LN UX!

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on February 20, 2023, 02:18:08 AM

Quote from: n0nce on February 19, 2023, 10:52:01 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on February 19, 2023, 04:29:22 PM

Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline.
[...]

Just updated and checked my channels; everything's there. Have you tried just rebooting once after the update?
I had an issue that was solved by forcing a database upgrade, but that should be unrelated.

Yes, I did both of that.
I learned that there is an issue with experimental-dual-fund option. I disabled it and I only have 1 channel offline now.
This issue is in github.

Interesting; good to have that logged here. I did disable that, too, when trying to troubleshoot the database issue. Guess I got lucky, then!
While updating Core LN, I noticed that my full node install guide is quite outdated by now; I will update it to the latest version of everything probably towards the weekend.

darkv0rt3x

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Quote from: n0nce on February 19, 2023, 10:52:01 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on February 19, 2023, 04:29:22 PM

Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline.
[...]

Just updated and checked my channels; everything's there. Have you tried just rebooting once after the update?
I had an issue that was solved by forcing a database upgrade, but that should be unrelated.

Yes, I did both of that.
I learned that there is an issue with experimental-dual-fund option. I disabled it and I only have 1 channel offline now.
This issue is in github.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on February 19, 2023, 04:29:22 PM

Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline.
[...]

Just updated and checked my channels; everything's there. Have you tried just rebooting once after the update?
I had an issue that was solved by forcing a database upgrade, but that should be unrelated.

darkv0rt3x

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Activity: 1274

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I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline. However I can connect to their respective peers.
I'm only beind Tor, no cleanet. But this only happened after I updated to v22.11.1. Anyone experiencing anything similar?

Edited;
In one of the cases which is with @_Rath node, I can see this:

Code:

0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Connect OUT
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_out WIRE_INIT
...
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_in WIRE_INIT
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-chan#73: Peer transient failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: Disconnected
...
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-gossipd: seeker: chosen as startup peer
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Handed peer, entering loop
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-gossipd: seeker: starting gossip
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_in WIRE_WARNING
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Received WIRE_WARNING: warning: Feature 28 requires feature 20
connectd: drain_peer
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-lightningd: peer_disconnect_done

No idea why it says [teletype]peer_disconnect_done[/teletype].

Then the reconnection is attempted a bit later with the same messages and this new one somewhere in between:

Code:

0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-chan#73: Peer transient failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: Disconnected

Any hints?

darkv0rt3x

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Quote from: n0nce on January 07, 2023, 07:44:43 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 07, 2023, 07:01:08 PM

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.

Nope. Just tried it out though and whole-heartedly agree. Cheesy

It's a nice idea and I believe something like this exists in fiat-land already, but it would be great to be able to quickly commission profile pictures or similar, for sats over Lightning.

Sadly as of now, it seems to be a bit buggy. Let's check back on it in a few months.

Yeah, and UX is not yet very user-friendly. I struggled a bit to unerstand what to do and where to do. I sent 1000 sats there and tried to make some offers and asks, but as of now, I still didn't get any sats from those initial tasks.
Let's see if the site UX improves and bugs and etc!

n0nce

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 07, 2023, 07:01:08 PM

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.

Nope. Just tried it out though and whole-heartedly agree. Cheesy

It's a nice idea and I believe something like this exists in fiat-land already, but it would be great to be able to quickly commission profile pictures or similar, for sats over Lightning.

Sadly as of now, it seems to be a bit buggy. Let's check back on it in a few months.

darkv0rt3x

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Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.
Check here:
https://stacker.news/items/118925

and here:
https://artisats.com/

n0nce

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 19, 2022, 07:50:02 AM

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

Still off-topic. I was talking about how a flood of closed channels doesn't motivate more users to close their channels.

You guys are talking about the downsides of running a node in general; I don't see the connection to the 'resembles a crashing altcoin' comment and matching graph further above.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 01:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 05:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 05:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

n0nce

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 01:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 05:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 05:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

Sure; but I don't see how that relates to the discussion.
Since the value of one BTC on Lightning is equal as on L1 (as it's simply locked in a multisig), node operators' incentive for closing channels (which you described) doesn't correlate with other operators closing their channels.

The supply / demand dynamic here is completely different than when a shitcoin is going down; because as people sell, it loses more value, so you're pressured to also sell, further lowering the coin's value.
Meanwhile if LN operators start closing channels, they don't change Bitcoin's value; no coins are bought or sold, only transactions are published on-chain. There is no transfer of value between BTC and something else.

Therefore Lightning channels getting closed don't lead to more channel closings in an accelerating, avalanche-type manner.

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 8. (Read 33783 times)