The Lightning Network FAQ - page 8. | Bitcointalksearch.org

n0nce

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on February 19, 2023, 05:29:22 PM

Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline.
[...]

Just updated and checked my channels; everything's there. Have you tried just rebooting once after the update?
I had an issue that was solved by forcing a database upgrade, but that should be unrelated.

darkv0rt3x

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Hi peeps

I have updated my Lightning Node to CLN v22.11.1 and now I have 4 of my channels offline. However I can connect to their respective peers.
I'm only beind Tor, no cleanet. But this only happened after I updated to v22.11.1. Anyone experiencing anything similar?

Edited;
In one of the cases which is with @_Rath node, I can see this:

Code:

0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Connect OUT
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_out WIRE_INIT
...
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_in WIRE_INIT
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-chan#73: Peer transient failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: Disconnected
...
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-gossipd: seeker: chosen as startup peer
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Handed peer, entering loop
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-gossipd: seeker: starting gossip
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: peer_in WIRE_WARNING
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-connectd: Received WIRE_WARNING: warning: Feature 28 requires feature 20
connectd: drain_peer
0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-lightningd: peer_disconnect_done

No idea why it says [teletype]peer_disconnect_done[/teletype].

Then the reconnection is attempted a bit later with the same messages and this new one somewhere in between:

Code:

0273da0a525390c36857841e208f1d289275c76ebfa7ecfde697c6cbf4f235b4f5-chan#73: Peer transient failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: Disconnected

Any hints?

darkv0rt3x

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Quote from: n0nce on January 07, 2023, 08:44:43 PM

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 07, 2023, 08:01:08 PM

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.

Nope. Just tried it out though and whole-heartedly agree. Cheesy

It's a nice idea and I believe something like this exists in fiat-land already, but it would be great to be able to quickly commission profile pictures or similar, for sats over Lightning.

Sadly as of now, it seems to be a bit buggy. Let's check back on it in a few months.

Yeah, and UX is not yet very user-friendly. I struggled a bit to unerstand what to do and where to do. I sent 1000 sats there and tried to make some offers and asks, but as of now, I still didn't get any sats from those initial tasks.
Let's see if the site UX improves and bugs and etc!

n0nce

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 07, 2023, 08:01:08 PM

Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.

Nope. Just tried it out though and whole-heartedly agree. Cheesy

It's a nice idea and I believe something like this exists in fiat-land already, but it would be great to be able to quickly commission profile pictures or similar, for sats over Lightning.

Sadly as of now, it seems to be a bit buggy. Let's check back on it in a few months.

darkv0rt3x

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Have you guys heard of artisats.com? Seems a cool idea but still a lot can be improved.
Check here:
https://stacker.news/items/118925

and here:
https://artisats.com/

n0nce

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 19, 2022, 08:50:02 AM

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

Still off-topic. I was talking about how a flood of closed channels doesn't motivate more users to close their channels.

You guys are talking about the downsides of running a node in general; I don't see the connection to the 'resembles a crashing altcoin' comment and matching graph further above.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 02:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

OR they can invest their capital, the Bitcoins, into something more profitable/something that gives more returns on investment. It's called "Opportunity Cost". I posted some "shower-thoughts" about it in this topic, but I believe no one was ready to accept that the concept could probably become true, or that it was already true. Perhaps in five more years, everyone will see the point with more clarity.

n0nce

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on December 19, 2022, 02:50:34 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

Sure; but I don't see how that relates to the discussion.
Since the value of one BTC on Lightning is equal as on L1 (as it's simply locked in a multisig), node operators' incentive for closing channels (which you described) doesn't correlate with other operators closing their channels.

The supply / demand dynamic here is completely different than when a shitcoin is going down; because as people sell, it loses more value, so you're pressured to also sell, further lowering the coin's value.
Meanwhile if LN operators start closing channels, they don't change Bitcoin's value; no coins are bought or sold, only transactions are published on-chain. There is no transfer of value between BTC and something else.

Therefore Lightning channels getting closed don't lead to more channel closings in an accelerating, avalanche-type manner.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

LN node operators who run nodes for a profit (those that open many channels with the goal of making coin from tx fees) effectively are forced to keep their coin on a hot wallet, which has its own costs in the form of risk. If these entities are not making enough coin to justify this risk, they can move their coin to cold storage which would require them to close their channels

DaveF

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Quote from: n0nce on December 18, 2022, 07:54:51 PM

Quote from: DaveF on December 18, 2022, 07:28:37 PM

Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.

Are there still reachable nodes in Hetzner's IP space? In that case, the ToS update seems hard to enforce, doesn't it.. Grin

Many reachable nodes, check the post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5429901

I have been playing a bit more over the last hour and have connected more LN peers in their IP space with no issues and running addnode and the IPs for a bunch of the core nodes running in Hetzner IP space added them with no problem.

At this point I am convinced it's something that blipped either with their routing or some other routing someplace and nothing more. When I say routing I am talking about IP routing not LN routing.

-Dave

n0nce

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Quote from: dkbit98 on December 18, 2022, 06:38:43 PM

Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

I think the problem is much bigger and it's connected with Hetzner shutting down every nodes related with cryptocurrencies and that drop on chart is representing 10,000 Bitcoin Lightn.ng Nodes.
One member posted this information today on forum, and I can't be totally sure about this, but I remember hearing this news about Hetzner recently.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The hetzner blanket ban on crypto is taking further effect, in accordance to their terms of service. In the last 3 days, 10,000 bitcoin lightning network nodes were cut from the network. It is very likely that this is due to continued enforcement of Hetzner TOS upon its customers.

I don't think that's related at all. Again; those nodes are still reachable by every other network explorer; plus, Hetzner didn't have that many locations, servers and thus probably also Bitcoin / Lightning nodes, so far. They are only now starting to expand to America and elsewhere.

Also, that ToS update was months ago; late spring, early summer.

Quote from: DaveF on December 18, 2022, 07:28:37 PM

Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.

Are there still reachable nodes in Hetzner's IP space? In that case, the ToS update seems hard to enforce, doesn't it.. Grin

DaveF

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Just replied in the other thread but I have no issues connecting to BTC and LN nodes on Hetzner IP space so I don't think that is the issue.
Since the only thing that I can say is that there is no issue with nodes on that platform from where I am sitting (and I hate using *I* since that is a really small sample set).

At a guess it's either a routing / peering issue between Hetzner and parts of the internet. OR, since some places are not seeing the drop, it could be the connections from bitcoinvisuals and lookintobitcoin.com to the rest of the world.

-Dave

dkbit98

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Quote from: n0nce on December 17, 2022, 06:57:04 PM

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

I think the problem is much bigger and it's connected with Hetzner shutting down every nodes related with cryptocurrencies and that drop on chart is representing 10,000 Bitcoin Lightn.ng Nodes.
One member posted this information today on forum, and I can't be totally sure about this, but I remember hearing this news about Hetzner recently.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The hetzner blanket ban on crypto is taking further effect, in accordance to their terms of service. In the last 3 days, 10,000 bitcoin lightning network nodes were cut from the network. It is very likely that this is due to continued enforcement of Hetzner TOS upon its customers.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 17, 2022, 06:34:57 PM

~

Lightning Network statistics are very hard to measure, due to the nature of this network. No one node can easily see all other nodes.
The https://1ml.com/ service reports no anomalies in network capacity. It should be roughly around 5,000 BTC as of now, increasing by 1.38% in the past 30 days.

https://amboss.space/ also reports 5,280 BTC of capacity.

Most likely, the service you mentioned closed some channels and lost connection to parts of the network.

Lightning Network has no analogies to a shitcoin; compared to those, even if Lightning demand were to suddenly fall, node operators would have no incentive to hurry up closing their channel. They can do that at any time and 'unlock' on-chain balance again, which is obviously unaffected by a drop in Lightning demand - if we assume BTC on-chain demand (and thus price) is unaffected.
Meanwhile if a shitcoin starts crashing, you have to sell fast too, to minimize losses, further accelerating the downfall.

dkbit98

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Does anyone have more information what is happening with Lightning Network capacity?
Either this is some bug related with lookintobitcoin website or Bitcoin Lightning Capacity dropped sharply, and this chart looks like typical shitcoin going to zero :/
I noticed some drops on other website that tracks LN capacity but nothing this drastic like on lookintobitcoin website.

https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/lightning-network-capacity/

This is chart on bitcoinvisuals.com:

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity

n0nce

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 11, 2022, 03:37:49 AM

Quote from: n0nce on December 10, 2022, 08:24:22 PM

[...]

By default it doesn't encrypt states, but isn't this trivial to do in theory? You could derive the first public key of your HD wallet (or use the public key of the corresponded hsm_secret if used as private key) and do ECIES.

I'm neither in favor of third parties, but this isn't about being reliant on third parties (with the accepted sense of the term). It's just that I trust their operation more than I trust my drives (but I don't trust them to keep it unencrypted).

This is a good idea! It would actually be possible to implement this into the backup plugin or fork it and call it encrypted-backup plugin; just adds encryption and ability to upload to cloud providers. Other than that, the functionality would stay the same.

I'm willing to give it a try myself, it's just I'm a bit booked out right now.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on December 10, 2022, 08:24:22 PM

[...]

By default it doesn't encrypt states, but isn't this trivial to do in theory? You could derive the first public key of your HD wallet (or use the public key of the corresponded hsm_secret if used as private key) and do ECIES.

I'm neither in favor of third parties, but this isn't about being reliant on third parties (with the accepted sense of the term). It's just that I trust their operation more than I trust my drives (but I don't trust them to keep it unencrypted).

n0nce

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on December 10, 2022, 06:56:45 AM

In which manner do you guys back up your C-Lightning node? I've thought of connecting a separate USB to the Raspberry Pi, but I haven't find the time, and the money I'm risking aren't much. I've backed up the hsm_secret obviously, because it can be done on paper. Is encrypted cloud back-up an option? I've thought of sending my channel states encrypted to some cloud service as well; sometimes, you trust the service more than your hard drives.

I do it as described in my guide.
The disk is just a local NAS network share (redundant), and you shouldn't upload to a cloud, because...

Quote from: https://lightning.readthedocs.io/BACKUP.html#sqlite3-wallet-main-backup-and-remote-nfs-mount

Do note that files are not stored encrypted, so you should really not do this with rented space (”cloud storage”).

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

In which manner do you guys back up your C-Lightning node? I've thought of connecting a separate USB to the Raspberry Pi, but I haven't find the time, and the money I'm risking aren't much. I've backed up the hsm_secret obviously, because it can be done on paper. Is encrypted cloud back-up an option? I've thought of sending my channel states encrypted to some cloud service as well; sometimes, you trust the service more than your hard drives.

The backup plugin doesn't seem suggested according to the dev team:

Quote

This has the advantage compared to the backup plugin below of requiring exactly the same amount of space on both the main and backup storage. The backup plugin will take more space on the backup than on the main storage. It has the disadvantage that it will only work with the SQLITE3 backend and is not supported by the PostgreSQL backend, and is unlikely to be supported on any future database backends.

darkv0rt3x

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Anyone interested in opening a dual funded channel (CLN) depending on the capcity?

In the meantime I decided to open a channel to someone! Offer is off! :p

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 8. (Read 33222 times)