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Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 71. (Read 33805 times)

DaveF
legendary
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Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 31, 2020, 07:24:42 AM
#190
Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on January 31, 2020, 04:53:38 AM
I haven't seen any info about the announcing of Strike by Zap here on the forum except in the WO thread. Tried searching for it but 0 interest. It's a good new for the whole LN and Bitcoin in general so why not share the info here. I'll just quote the post from WO thread Smiley

Quote from: Last of the V8s on January 30, 2020, 02:40:24 PM
Quote
an application that allows you to make Lightning payments with your bank account or debit card. Using Strike requires the following: a debit card or bank account. That’s it; no wallet, no node, no channels, no swaps, no liquidity management, no anything.

https://medium.com/@JimmyMow/announcing-strike-by-zap-4f578c7c8984

---SNIP---

Yeah, I saw that yesterday and wanted to play with it a bit before commenting on it. Going to see if I can get a few minutes this weekend and take a look.
I hope it's quick and simple, I have read nothing about setting it up. Not because I fear difficult, but I just don't have time.

Side note, my node is back up and stable for a few days now so if you were one of the people I closed a channel to feel free to open it again I think it should be good for a while now.

-Dave
fillippone
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Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 31, 2020, 05:34:06 AM
#189
Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on January 31, 2020, 04:53:38 AM
I haven't seen any info about the announcing of Strike by Zap here on the forum except in the WO thread. Tried searching for it but 0 interest. It's a good new for the whole LN and Bitcoin in general so why not share the info here. I'll just quote the post from WO thread Smiley


WO thread is a greatly undervalued source of information.
Having said that, I posted something in the Italian section about this, and in my very humble opinion is a big step ahead because I recall, when I used to do my monthly commentaries, to write LN needed a decent user experience to be in real competition to Credit Cards (LN main competitor, i think).
This is a big step in the right direction: flawless execution, limited/no existent hassle.
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 31, 2020, 05:24:13 AM
#188
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 31, 2020, 03:21:09 AM
Quote from: darosior on January 30, 2020, 07:40:43 AM
Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
--

The coins you collect from routing fees can support the expenses/costs of running your Lightning node? Hard to believe, but that's good.

It's not hard to believe that the fees you collect from forwarding can support your paying fees. You just need to not connect to 4999ppm fees charging peers...
Moreover I've no infrastructure cost. And not doing altruistically takes the service or instant non-censurable payments into account Wink.

Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
Plus do you think that Lightning's fee-structure now is in its final form? It won't increase depending on demand? Because it's very hard to assume that it won't if the economic cost is scarce.

I'm not sure so.. I don't know.


Visualize this. Bitcoin's adoption rate reached 10% of the world's population, the Lightning Network is the standard for instant payment, demand for inbound capacity has increased exponentially, economic cost for it is a scarce/valuable asset.

Ok, I think (/hope?) that at some point the demand will switch from inbound to outbound capacity.
TheBeardedBaby
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₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 31, 2020, 04:53:38 AM
#187
I haven't seen any info about the announcing of Strike by Zap here on the forum except in the WO thread. Tried searching for it but 0 interest. It's a good new for the whole LN and Bitcoin in general so why not share the info here. I'll just quote the post from WO thread Smiley

Quote from: Last of the V8s on January 30, 2020, 02:40:24 PM
Quote
an application that allows you to make Lightning payments with your bank account or debit card. Using Strike requires the following: a debit card or bank account. That’s it; no wallet, no node, no channels, no swaps, no liquidity management, no anything.

https://medium.com/@JimmyMow/announcing-strike-by-zap-4f578c7c8984

Quote
Bank accounts and debit cards can now speak to nodes all over the world, and nodes all over the world can now speak to bank accounts and debit cards. The possibilities are endless and the sky is the limit.

pretty good Tongue




edit https://twitter.com/JackMallers/status/1222941238279708674?s=20
Wind_FURY
legendary
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Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 31, 2020, 03:21:09 AM
#186
Quote from: darosior on January 30, 2020, 07:40:43 AM
Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
--

The coins you collect from routing fees can support the expenses/costs of running your Lightning node? Hard to believe, but that's good.

It's not hard to believe that the fees you collect from forwarding can support your paying fees. You just need to not connect to 4999ppm fees charging peers...
Moreover I've no infrastructure cost. And not doing altruistically takes the service or instant non-censurable payments into account Wink.

Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
Plus do you think that Lightning's fee-structure now is in its final form? It won't increase depending on demand? Because it's very hard to assume that it won't if the economic cost is scarce.

I'm not sure so.. I don't know.


Visualize this. Bitcoin's adoption rate reached 10% of the world's population, the Lightning Network is the standard for instant payment, demand for inbound capacity has increased exponentially, economic cost for it is a scarce/valuable asset.
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 30, 2020, 07:40:43 AM
#185
Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
--

The coins you collect from routing fees can support the expenses/costs of running your Lightning node? Hard to believe, but that's good.
[/quote]

It's not hard to believe that the fees you collect from forwarding can support your paying fees. You just need to not connect to 4999ppm fees charging peers...
Moreover I've no infrastructure cost. And not doing altruistically takes the service or instant non-censurable payments into account Wink.

Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
Plus do you think that Lightning's fee-structure now is in its final form? It won't increase depending on demand? Because it's very hard to assume that it won't if the economic cost is scarce.

I'm not sure so.. I don't know.
Wind_FURY
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 30, 2020, 05:30:31 AM
#184
Quote from: darosior on January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 26, 2020, 02:43:11 AM
Quote from: darosior on January 23, 2020, 03:40:38 AM
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
Who among the consistent Lightning users here have been running a node, specialized specifically for routing transactions/providing liquidity, how long have you been running it, and what's the averge cost of running it?

I've been running one (C-lightning) for almost two years now, and it costs me barely nothing : just setup on top of my old computer which already ran core.
So it costed me a low end computer which I had for free (I'm in the process of changing it, but I'm not that well connected after all) and electricity cost for an idle computer.

The bigger cost is the coins to open channels.


Practically speaking, how long, do you believe, can you stake your Bitcoins, and altruistically continue running your node, rebalance channels, to provide liquidity without incentives?

I've been doing this for more than a year now, with rebalance fees at my charge. I've stopped doing this by closing channels to peers charging too much fees and connecting to peers charging little fees (which I found thanks to a little plugin I wrote). This way, not only I'm no longer altruistically running my node (since I make use of rebalanced channels) but I can also earn some (milli)sats if I happen to charge less fees than my neighbors.


The coins you collect from routing fees can support the expenses/costs of running your Lightning node? Hard to believe, but that's good.

Plus do you think that Lightning's fee-structure now is in its final form? It won't increase depending on demand? Because it's very hard to assume that it won't if the economic cost is scarce.

DaveF
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 26, 2020, 10:05:07 AM
#183
My node just started throwing hardware errors.
I am in the process of closing all the channels that I had open. I know there were some people here who I had some open with, if there are any problems let me know, should just close gracefully but if they don't I'm going to force close them.

-Dave
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 26, 2020, 05:41:25 AM
#182
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 26, 2020, 02:43:11 AM
Quote from: darosior on January 23, 2020, 03:40:38 AM
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
Who among the consistent Lightning users here have been running a node, specialized specifically for routing transactions/providing liquidity, how long have you been running it, and what's the averge cost of running it?

I've been running one (C-lightning) for almost two years now, and it costs me barely nothing : just setup on top of my old computer which already ran core.
So it costed me a low end computer which I had for free (I'm in the process of changing it, but I'm not that well connected after all) and electricity cost for an idle computer.

The bigger cost is the coins to open channels.


Practically speaking, how long, do you believe, can you stake your Bitcoins, and altruistically continue running your node, rebalance channels, to provide liquidity without incentives?
I've been doing this for more than a year now, with rebalance fees at my charge. I've stopped doing this by closing channels to peers charging too much fees and connecting to peers charging little fees (which I found thanks to a little plugin I wrote). This way, not only I'm no longer altruistically running my node (since I make use of rebalanced channels) but I can also earn some (milli)sats if I happen to charge less fees than my neighbors.
Wind_FURY
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 26, 2020, 02:43:11 AM
#181
Quote from: darosior on January 23, 2020, 03:40:38 AM
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
Who among the consistent Lightning users here have been running a node, specialized specifically for routing transactions/providing liquidity, how long have you been running it, and what's the averge cost of running it?

I've been running one (C-lightning) for almost two years now, and it costs me barely nothing : just setup on top of my old computer which already ran core.
So it costed me a low end computer which I had for free (I'm in the process of changing it, but I'm not that well connected after all) and electricity cost for an idle computer.

The bigger cost is the coins to open channels.


Practically speaking, how long, do you believe, can you stake your Bitcoins, and altruistically continue running your node, rebalance channels, to provide liquidity without incentives?
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 02:23:49 PM
#180
Quote from: Rath_ on January 25, 2020, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: darosior on January 25, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
C-lightning can run against a pruned node for example, so you can have a full Bitcoin-today setup for 30GB of storage (or even less).

I had been using LND for most of the time; that's why I mostly mention features available only for it. Thanks for bringing it up. Running a pruned node sounds more appealing than experimental software. What other c-lightning features are worth paying attention to?
I'd say plugins for extensibility.
If you are a regular user, you can choose from a constantly growing list of community-curated C-lightning plugins.
If you are a developer, or at least know a bit of Python or other high-level language (there are libs for Python, JS, Go, C, C++), you can script a C-lightning plugin really quickly that fits your needs. The C-lightning server (`lightningd`) will send to plugins notifications about events (like, "an invoice has been paid") or hooks (like, "I got an HTLC, its details are {}, what do I do with it ?"), and allow it to register new RPC commands (for example the summary plugin adds the `summary` command which give a higher level summary of your node's status).

Otherwise, not that many features as C-lightning aims to only implement the core functionalities : anything higher-level belongs to plugins.
Rath_
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 02:01:01 PM
#179
Quote from: darosior on January 25, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
C-lightning can run against a pruned node for example, so you can have a full Bitcoin-today setup for 30GB of storage (or even less).

I had been using LND for most of the time; that's why I mostly mention features available only for it. Thanks for bringing it up. Running a pruned node sounds more appealing than experimental software. What other c-lightning features are worth paying attention to?
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
#178
Quote
The only alternative that comes to my mind is neutrino
I know you are talking about LND, but for reference that's not specific to all LN nodes. C-lightning can run against a pruned node for example, so you can have a full Bitcoin-today setup for 30GB of storage (or even less).
Rath_
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 01:45:05 PM
#177
Quote from: LoyceV on January 25, 2020, 08:44:23 AM
Doesn't it need a full Bitcoin Core, and thus quite a lot of disk space and RAM?

The only alternative that comes to my mind is neutrino (for LND) which fetches the necessary data from compatible full nodes It makes use of BIP158. It's not as reliable as the full node setup. I might try using it this time so I can let you know how it performs if you want.
darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 12:19:22 PM
#176
Hi,

Quote from: LoyceV on January 25, 2020, 08:44:23 AM
Quote from: Rath_ on January 24, 2020, 03:39:35 PM
While 0.9.0 does not support sending MPP (Multi-Path Payments), it does support receiving them. It looks like we will have working MPPs by the end of the year!
I've been wondering for a while now how that would work. You don't want one path to be confirmed, and the other paths to get stuck. That would result is a partial payment.
It turns out the magic word to solve this problem is "Atomic". I'll only quote the magic part, the full article explains it in depth:
Quote from: Atomic Multi-Path Payments
If Bob does not receive all of the partial payments, then he cannot generate the base pre-image thus making it atomic.
What you describe is a proposal made from Lightning Labs team (namely Olaoluwa and Conner), which is about "mathematical" atomic multi-parts payments.
However, what has been merged to the spec and is implemented by LND, C-lightning and Eclair (maybe Rust-Lightning too?) are kind of "economical" multi-parts payments. The receiver won't claim (and thus release the preimage, which is a proof of payment) any part before having all of them. Doing so would be economically irrational as the receiver would accept the payment before receiving it entirely. As such all parts use the same payment hash, thus the same preimage (== proof of payment).

Some refs:
- Link to the "mathematical" AMP mailing list thread https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-February/000993.html
- Link to the "mathematical" AMP spec proposal https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/658
- Link to then "economical" AMP (merged) spec proposal https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/643
LoyceV
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Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 25, 2020, 08:44:23 AM
#175
Quote from: Rath_ on January 24, 2020, 03:39:35 PM
While 0.9.0 does not support sending MPP (Multi-Path Payments), it does support receiving them. It looks like we will have working MPPs by the end of the year!
I've been wondering for a while now how that would work. You don't want one path to be confirmed, and the other paths to get stuck. That would result is a partial payment.
It turns out the magic word to solve this problem is "Atomic". I'll only quote the magic part, the full article explains it in depth:
Quote from: Rath_ on January 24, 2020, 03:39:35 PM
I stopped running my node at some point since I didn't need a dedicated server for anything else at that time. I might consider running it again since I have been renting a dedicated server for 2 months now. The resource usage is negligible.
Doesn't it need a full Bitcoin Core, and thus quite a lot of disk space and RAM?
Rath_
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 24, 2020, 03:39:35 PM
#174
Lnd v0.9.0-beta was released 2 days ago. The update introduced quite a few new features and changes. While 0.9.0 does not support sending MPP (Multi-Path Payments), it does support receiving them. It looks like we will have working MPPs by the end of the year!

Once I have passed all of my exams, I will look into other implementations and see if they also got similar features.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
-snip

I stopped running my node at some point since I didn't need a dedicated server for anything else at that time. I might consider running it again since I have been renting a dedicated server for 2 months now. The resource usage is negligible.

darosior
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 435
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 23, 2020, 03:40:38 AM
#173
Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
Who among the consistent Lightning users here have been running a node, specialized specifically for routing transactions/providing liquidity, how long have you been running it, and what's the averge cost of running it?
I've been running one (C-lightning) for almost two years now, and it costs me barely nothing : just setup on top of my old computer which already ran core.
So it costed me a low end computer which I had for free (I'm in the process of changing it, but I'm not that well connected after all) and electricity cost for an idle computer.
The bigger cost is the coins to open channels.
Wind_FURY
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 23, 2020, 01:20:56 AM
#172
Who among the consistent Lightning users here have been running a node, specialized specifically for routing transactions/providing liquidity, how long have you been running it, and what's the averge cost of running it?
DaveF
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
Re: The Lightning Network FAQ
January 04, 2020, 07:07:37 PM
#171
Can anyone do me a favor and open up a channel to my node at home?

Whacker
03400a67375da5d5d04dd59514452ce9f0cadb2fbec65863073897d52843b61c80@24.45.24.105:9735
03400a67375da5d5d04dd59514452ce9f0cadb2fbec65863073897d52843b61c80@whacker.cas8.com:9735

I can open channels out and pay invoices, but when I try to open one from my other node at the office it fails.

But, I have done some testing on my node at the office and I don't know if I broke something.

Thanks,
Dave
edit: someone opened one. If it was one of you thanks :-)
Now all I have to do is figure out what I broke on the office one.
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