Also in relation to privacy/fungibility over Lightning, here is a link to another write-up by the same author (ZmnSCPxj) Darosior linked on a Coinswap-like procedure using the Lightning protocol:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-October/002245.html
Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 72. (Read 33805 times)
But, can it help in making your transactions harder to trace?
Of course 
Want to test it for yourself? Try finding my on-chain address connected to this transaction.I can't, of course.
But that's the beauty if some specialized actors, good or bad, decide to track and breach user-privacy. They're required to stake Bitcoins in Lightning, provide liquidity, which add value to the network.
Hi everyone,
As we talked about privacy in this thread, here is a great write up by ZmnSCPxj which summarizes a lot of the known privacy breaches: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-December/002408.html.
As we talked about privacy in this thread, here is a great write up by ZmnSCPxj which summarizes a lot of the known privacy breaches: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-December/002408.html.
But, can it help in making your transactions harder to trace?
Of course Want to test it for yourself? Try finding my on-chain address connected to this transaction. 
Privacy in on-chain transactions are also the users' responsibility. What's so special about it for the troll?
Thought they were scoring cheap points. Failed as usual.
One day they'll learn that they've lost every argument before they've even tried to make it, because their go-to position is to throw decentralisation under the bus. It's the one thing all the Lightning detractors can't get around. LN provides more throughput without placing any additional burden on the non-Lightning users who secure the blockchain.
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
Nodes participating in the routing process don't know who initiated the transaction and what the final destination is thanks to onion routing. Transactions are not listed anywhere so they can't be tracked by outsiders. As for hiding the amount, multi-part payments have just become a real thing.
OK, with all that, can Lightning then be developed into a viable, trust-minimized alternative for centralized mixing/tumbling?
As I said above not really if you want to get back on chain afterwards. But just use joinmarket if you want trustless mixing...
But, can it help in making your transactions harder to trace? I believe that's the whole point I was arriving at.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-network-traffic-analysis-raises-questions-fees-privacy
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.09432.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.09432.pdf
Quote
this paper’s findings currently put the responsibility of privacy on users selecting their payment routes.
Oh, no! Responsibility?! What a catastrophe!
Responsibility is something that generally comes with freedom. It's only natural. Even if no further advancements were made towards privacy from this point forwards, it's a fair price to pay (and I suspect the majority of users on this chain would rather take on some additional responsibility, rather than sacrifice decentralisation, which is a much higher cost to bear). But I suspect we'll be making continued advancements in privacy anyway, both on-chain and off.
Privacy in on-chain transactions are also the users' responsibility. What's so special about it for the troll?
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-network-traffic-analysis-raises-questions-fees-privacy
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.09432.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.09432.pdf
Quote
this paper’s findings currently put the responsibility of privacy on users selecting their payment routes.
Oh, no! Responsibility?! What a catastrophe!
Responsibility is something that generally comes with freedom. It's only natural. Even if no further advancements were made towards privacy from this point forwards, it's a fair price to pay (and I suspect the majority of users on this chain would rather take on some additional responsibility, rather than sacrifice decentralisation, which is a much higher cost to bear). But I suspect we'll be making continued advancements in privacy anyway, both on-chain and off.
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
Nodes participating in the routing process don't know who initiated the transaction and what the final destination is thanks to onion routing. Transactions are not listed anywhere so they can't be tracked by outsiders. As for hiding the amount, multi-part payments have just become a real thing.
OK, with all that, can Lightning then be developed into a viable, trust-minimized alternative for centralized mixing/tumbling?
Quote
Even at low LN-fees, I assume nodes will charge a percentage because that's how they earn (and they need to balance their channels again), so for high amounts, on-chain fees will be much lower.
It depends, I expect most of routing nodes to remove (most of?) their base fee in the future, and thus thanks to multi part payments you could make big payments as well.As the network grows there will be more and more alternative paths from you to your destination (and even more with smaller payments if you use MPP!), and if some node owners rise their fees too much they wont be chosen into routes anymore. So I don't expect fees to rise that much.
Nonetheless I hope the base layer will still be used because...
OK, with all that, can Lightning then be developed into a viable, trust-minimized alternative for centralized mixing/tumbling?
I don't expect LN to be used for many large transactions, so it might be used to hide the Even at low LN-fees, I assume nodes will charge a percentage because that's how they earn (and they need to balance their channels again), so for high amounts, on-chain fees will be much lower.
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
Nodes participating in the routing process don't know who initiated the transaction and what the final destination is thanks to onion routing. Transactions are not listed anywhere so they can't be tracked by outsiders. As for hiding the amount, multi-part payments have just become a real thing.
OK, with all that, can Lightning then be developed into a viable, trust-minimized alternative for centralized mixing/tumbling?
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
Nodes participating in the routing process don't know who initiated the transaction and what the final destination is thanks to onion routing. Transactions are not listed anywhere so they can't be tracked by outsiders. As for hiding the amount, multi-part payments have just become a real thing.
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
Nodes participating in the routing process don't know who initiated the transaction and what the final destination is thanks to onion routing. Transactions are not listed anywhere so they can't be tracked by outsiders. As for hiding the amount, multi-part payments have just become a real thing.
Possible use-case for Lightning. Viable as a trust-minimized alternative to mixing/tumbling if privacy features are developed.
Your thoughts?
Viable if you never get back on chain (or spend everything on the Lightning Network) Your thoughts?
But privacy features *are needed* a step before accessing the LN anyway, and it is not an alternative in any way.Never? What/how would someone track my transactions to myself in Lightning, with privacy features enabled?
What do you mean by "with privacy features enabled" ?
I meant, isn't it possible to develop privacy features to hide sender, receiver, and amount, off-chain in the Lightning Network?
So you open 2 channels on different devices: 1 channel to Bob, who runs a well-connected node, and another channel to Alice, who also runs a well-connected node. From your device connected to Bob, you send funds to your device connected to Alice. After you close the channels, there is no direct blockchain connection between your transactions.
But you can't receive on your channel to Alice until you make some payments, and you'll be able to only receive as much as you pay. So you basically get back at spending your bitcoins on the LN.This also assumes the output you used to fund the channel to Alice is not tainted in any way.
So the question is: who's going to keep track of all LN-transactions, and for how long?
What do you mean by LN-transactions ?If you mean LN payments, they (normally) cannot be linked.
If you mean Bitcoin transactions opening or closing (in any way) channels, then I think already-mentioned-above companies already do.
And although I'm not sure if LN works like this: if your channel to and from the node is not public, only Bob and Alice know the exact connection.
You should not rely on unpublished channels, they are biggest (potential) privacy leaks than they seem to be (in addition to having many other downsides). (Non-related to the initial subject, but if you are interested https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/681) However, if you fund a channel with a so-called tainted output, close the channel with remaining funds on your side then nothing was mixed at all.
So you open 2 channels on different devices: 1 channel to Bob, who runs a well-connected node, and another channel to Alice, who also runs a well-connected node. From your device connected to Bob, you send funds to your device connected to Alice. After you close the channels, there is no direct blockchain connection between your transactions.So the question is: who's going to keep track of all LN-transactions, and for how long? And although I'm not sure if LN works like this: if your channel to and from the node is not public, only Bob and Alice know the exact connection.
Possible use-case for Lightning. Viable as a trust-minimized alternative to mixing/tumbling if privacy features are developed.
Your thoughts?
Viable if you never get back on chain (or spend everything on the Lightning Network) Your thoughts?
But privacy features *are needed* a step before accessing the LN anyway, and it is not an alternative in any way.Never? What/how would someone track my transactions to myself in Lightning, with privacy features enabled?
However, if you fund a channel with a so-called tainted output, close the channel with remaining funds on your side then nothing was mixed at all.
What do you mean by "with privacy features enabled" ?
PS: I didn't want to even mention it but Khaos77's message above is of course nonsense...
Trolls doesn't believe that development of privacy features are possible in Lightning. Plus I encourage bad-actors/spying-agencies to "track" Lightning transactions. They would have to stake Bitcoin and help with liquidity.
Possible use-case for Lightning. Viable as a trust-minimized alternative to mixing/tumbling if privacy features are developed.
Your thoughts?
Viable if you never get back on chain (or spend everything on the Lightning Network) Your thoughts?
But privacy features *are needed* a step before accessing the LN anyway, and it is not an alternative in any way.Never? What/how would someone track my transactions to myself in Lightning, with privacy features enabled?
Possible use-case for Lightning. Viable as a trust-minimized alternative to mixing/tumbling if privacy features are developed.
Your thoughts?
Viable if you never get back on chain (or spend everything on the Lightning Network) Your thoughts?
But privacy features *are needed* a step before accessing the LN anyway, and it is not an alternative in any way.
Possible use-case for Lightning. Viable as a trust-minimized alternative to mixing/tumbling if privacy features are developed.
Your thoughts?
Your thoughts?
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