Topic: The problem with atheism. - page 20. (Read 38498 times)
I'm curious how intelligent design advocates view other human ancestors and relatives? At times, as many as five or more species of humans lived together. What is the intelligence that leads a creator to create many hominids then kill off all but one? Were these other people-like animals not worthy of worshiping the creator? And why wait so long to create humans? Why wait billions of years?
Wouldn't you prefer to believe that your consciousness is intelligent and capable of free will rather than just a bunch of random reactions?
I'd prefer to believe that I am a pretty fairy princess, with pretty butterfly wings, and a whole stable of pretty pink and purple unicorns (not really), but, alas, reality doesn't give a shit about what I want to believe, and it's more productive to NOT live in a fantasy world.
From an article:
The tailbone or coccyx has often been presumed to be vestigial and a leftover remnant to our alleged mammal and reptilian ancestors who also had tails. Evidence that is cited includes the variable number of bony segments humans can have (usually 4 but can be 3 or 5) as well as “babies born with tails.” But these so called tails are not really tails at all and instead are a type of fatty tumor. There are no bones or muscles in them at all, and thus, it cannot truly be considered a vestigial organ.5
Spinney acknowledges that the coccyx now has a “modified function, notably as an anchor point for the muscles that hold the anus in place.” In fact, the coccyx is the anchor point for the muscles that form the entire pelvic diaphragm. Therefore, while the coccyx has a clear function in humans today, the only reason to claim that the function has been modified is because of evolutionary assumptions. If you believe that humans descended from animals that possessed tails, then there must have been a modification of the tailbone. In contrast, if our ancestor Adam was created by God then there was no modification, and our tailbone is just as it always was. Without the evolutionary presupposition, the evidence that the tailbone is vestigial evaporates.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/setting-record-straight-vestigial
The tailbone or coccyx has often been presumed to be vestigial and a leftover remnant to our alleged mammal and reptilian ancestors who also had tails. Evidence that is cited includes the variable number of bony segments humans can have (usually 4 but can be 3 or 5) as well as “babies born with tails.” But these so called tails are not really tails at all and instead are a type of fatty tumor. There are no bones or muscles in them at all, and thus, it cannot truly be considered a vestigial organ.5
Spinney acknowledges that the coccyx now has a “modified function, notably as an anchor point for the muscles that hold the anus in place.” In fact, the coccyx is the anchor point for the muscles that form the entire pelvic diaphragm. Therefore, while the coccyx has a clear function in humans today, the only reason to claim that the function has been modified is because of evolutionary assumptions. If you believe that humans descended from animals that possessed tails, then there must have been a modification of the tailbone. In contrast, if our ancestor Adam was created by God then there was no modification, and our tailbone is just as it always was. Without the evolutionary presupposition, the evidence that the tailbone is vestigial evaporates.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/setting-record-straight-vestigial
If I was an inteligent designer, I would have attached all those things to the pelvis, as it makes a far stronger and better support for those muscles. And the claim that "there must have been a modification of the tailbone" is kinda false, as we simply had longer tails, with the same muscles atached to the base of it, and eventually the number of segments in the coccyx reduced from 10, or however many it was, to 3 or 5, leaving us with just the base of our tails.
Does your source say anything about the bible's claim of incorrect number of ribs in males, or of whales having vestigial legs inside their bodies from the time when they used to roam on land as much smaller animals?
Wait wait wait. You go as far as to disbelieve the THEORY OF EVOLUTION? There are so many ways to prove it. The coccyx is one small example that, even if it is wrong, doesn't matter. The REAL important proof comes from GENETICS. We can see useless genes in the human genome. These are left over from evolution. Genetics is what makes us what we are, and through it, we can prove evolution. In addition, how do you explain dinosaurs? The huge crater that is in the Gulf of Mexico from the meteor that wipes them out? No mention of that in genesis, man actually NAMES every creature, and yet, man did not even exist when dinosaurs did. If you are going to say "god put the remnants in the earth on purpose," what POSSIBLE motivation could he have?
Also, there are two completely separate stories of creation inside Genesis, each from a different biblical source. Which one do you believe? Why? What makes it correct and the other false? Why are there two of them?
It just doesn't make sense!
Also, there are two completely separate stories of creation inside Genesis, each from a different biblical source. Which one do you believe? Why? What makes it correct and the other false? Why are there two of them?
It just doesn't make sense!
There is so much to answer here that I am going to use some articles to get my points across.
About the genetics issue:
Quote
In regards to hypothetical ideas about human evolution, one of the most commonly used arguments for “shared mistakes” inherited supposedly through common descent between humans and great apes has been the HBBP1 pseudogene. On the other hand, it is also one of the most perplexing arguments for human evolution because the sequence is so well conserved among humans and apes. According to evolutionary dogma, selective restraints should have been lifted on the pseudogene gene millions of years ago, thus allowing it to mutate freely.
see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-beta-globin-pseudogenes
The crater? From another article :
Quote
The New York Times article ignores another problem: the ongoing debate over the validity of the whole impact theory and the nature of the Chicxulub “impact crater” itself. (Some respected Earth scientists do not even believe it was a crater impact, as explained in the 1996 secular book The Great Dinosaur Extinction Controversy). Several difficulties remain unanswered:
◾ Why are there so many craters all over the Earth, with all sorts of different “dates” that don’t correlate with the fossil record?
◾How did light-sensitive organisms that live in shallow water survive, while the dinosaurs died?
◾Wouldn’t the dust from an asteroid impact create deadly acid rain that would wipe out amphibians and fish, but not necessarily large animals?
◾ Why are there so many craters all over the Earth, with all sorts of different “dates” that don’t correlate with the fossil record?
◾How did light-sensitive organisms that live in shallow water survive, while the dinosaurs died?
◾Wouldn’t the dust from an asteroid impact create deadly acid rain that would wipe out amphibians and fish, but not necessarily large animals?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2002/11/15/dinosaur-demise-theory
Dinosaurs lived with man (many were called dragons by most cultures BTW but us super smart people came up with a new name for them)
From another article:
Quote
“One of these cells is 65 million years old, and one is about 9 months old. Can anyone tell me which is which?”
Her inferred answer was no.
Will evolutionists now be convinced to think about rewriting dinosaur history?
As AiG wrote in a news release 12 months ago about this find (in a release which was distributed nationwide to the secular media):
The tissue/blood vessels are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most. (I.e., by the global Flood of Noah’s time, about 4,300 years ago.)
Her inferred answer was no.
Will evolutionists now be convinced to think about rewriting dinosaur history?
As AiG wrote in a news release 12 months ago about this find (in a release which was distributed nationwide to the secular media):
The tissue/blood vessels are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most. (I.e., by the global Flood of Noah’s time, about 4,300 years ago.)
I am not sure what you mean about the separate Creation stories? Can you explain exactly. I see only one but perhaps it is how I am reading it?
All that said, people have an amazing way of "finding" facts that support their preconceived ideas. You can say that about Christians but I can say that about what is called "Science" today. There are many things that are simply theories that are talked about like they are facts that is not good science.
I have studied and found many things that prove the Genesis account. The fact that many different cultures have stories about the flood independently is one small thing. But a few others- The amount of helium in the world. There would not be any left at all if the earth was not young because the amount that the earth is losing is at a steady pace. There is a fantastic book called Starlight and Time that proves that if the Earth was created out of a white hole then the stars could appear so far away because we were on the event horizon. The fact that we all are related to the same mother and this is proven in genetics is another. The amount of mutations that have occurred on the earth show that the earth is young based on the fact that there is a mathematical number that happens and it would be much greater than it is. I could go on ( see http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/ten-best-evidences ) but the problem is that even if there are evidences that point in the direction of proving Genesis and the Bible for whatever reason people are blind to them and do not want to see them.
All of that isn't evidence FOR young earth, it's evidence AGAINST old earth. It doesn't automatically prove that your theory is correct, as there could be any number of reasons for those things to happen, and your theory would actually need some positive evidence to support it. At this point, going by your list, a theory that "God did it like it describes in Genesis" is no better than "Aliens did it," or "Zeus did it" or even "There was way more helium locked in earth's crust that we expected." Discounting one theory does not automatically prove your own personal one.
Wait wait wait. You go as far as to disbelieve the THEORY OF EVOLUTION? There are so many ways to prove it. The coccyx is one small example that, even if it is wrong, doesn't matter. The REAL important proof comes from GENETICS. We can see useless genes in the human genome. These are left over from evolution. Genetics is what makes us what we are, and through it, we can prove evolution. In addition, how do you explain dinosaurs? The huge crater that is in the Gulf of Mexico from the meteor that wipes them out? No mention of that in genesis, man actually NAMES every creature, and yet, man did not even exist when dinosaurs did. If you are going to say "god put the remnants in the earth on purpose," what POSSIBLE motivation could he have?
Also, there are two completely separate stories of creation inside Genesis, each from a different biblical source. Which one do you believe? Why? What makes it correct and the other false? Why are there two of them?
It just doesn't make sense!
Also, there are two completely separate stories of creation inside Genesis, each from a different biblical source. Which one do you believe? Why? What makes it correct and the other false? Why are there two of them?
It just doesn't make sense!
You know where I stand on that!
Here is a movie you will love to hate Rassah:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ
"Can you give me some observable evidence of evolution?"
Sure! Look at your butt. You have a tail. It's under your skin, and is called a coccyx. You have no reason to have that tail, and it is actually more of a hindrance at this point (it can break, it causes pain, it gets in the way), but it's there, only because our ancestors actually had a full tail.
From an article:
The tailbone or coccyx has often been presumed to be vestigial and a leftover remnant to our alleged mammal and reptilian ancestors who also had tails. Evidence that is cited includes the variable number of bony segments humans can have (usually 4 but can be 3 or 5) as well as “babies born with tails.” But these so called tails are not really tails at all and instead are a type of fatty tumor. There are no bones or muscles in them at all, and thus, it cannot truly be considered a vestigial organ.5
Spinney acknowledges that the coccyx now has a “modified function, notably as an anchor point for the muscles that hold the anus in place.” In fact, the coccyx is the anchor point for the muscles that form the entire pelvic diaphragm. Therefore, while the coccyx has a clear function in humans today, the only reason to claim that the function has been modified is because of evolutionary assumptions. If you believe that humans descended from animals that possessed tails, then there must have been a modification of the tailbone. In contrast, if our ancestor Adam was created by God then there was no modification, and our tailbone is just as it always was. Without the evolutionary presupposition, the evidence that the tailbone is vestigial evaporates.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/setting-record-straight-vestigial
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
That gift is for everyone. He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance. He is no respecter of persons. He loves us so much He gave his Son for us. What more could He have possibly done?
But we have a choice to accept His gift or not. You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.
Come on Rassah. We have had this discussion before. I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason. But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth? Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything? There is a price to be paid for sins. We have all committed them. The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.
Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?
Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.
You act like I enjoy the fact that God is punishing people for eternity. Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).
My point was that God loves us all. He wills that all of us come to repentance. Why there is a Hell is beyond my understanding but I did not write the Bible and even though you found it to not be true (I do appreciate that you admit you have at least studied it!) I have found it is true.
Thanks to eve in the garden sin has entered the world and now we have a not so perfect world. (If I was Eve I would have tasted of the forbidden fruit too so she will get no judgement from me on that one) but for whatever reason we now have a fallen planet. It is not as God intended. Hell was not intended for us as humans but for the fallen angels and it grieves God greatly that we choose to go there. Perhaps it is our own choice that sends us there, not God's. It is a different way to look at it.
I'm not acting. You are. You have to, because your religion demands a level of hypocrisy that leads to an unacceptable rate of depression and suicide. Understand, I was a Christian minister at one time. My hatred for that religion knows NO bounds, but I don't hate Christians. Or "god" either. I've simply come to understand that IF there is a god, it's clearly not that one. It doesn't make sense, form top to bottom. You admit in your own post that Eve seeking knowledge was something YOU would do, and you believe in YHVH and it's avatar.
Further, Sin. What precisely is sin? The root word from which it's derived simply means "missing the mark" or "missing the target". It's larger ramifications ONLY matter to those who believe. Frankly, modern Christianity holds on to the doctrine of hell because fear is the only "weapon" left in their arsenal. They cannot anymore win against knowledge, as just about every argument they put forth is EASILY disproven except the existence of a deity and bio-genesis.Note that last one. Not Evolution, Bio-genesis. Evolution, which I'm sure you or another Christian in this thread will soon attack, is the most tested theory there ever was. It is incompatible with the book of Genesis, and Christian doctrine. If the one is true, the other is false. And the one IS demonstrably true. Contrary to Christian claims, evolutionary theory has nothing to do with the ORIGIN of life, thus does not by itself preclude a deity. It precludes YOUR deity, because we have irrefutable evidence that the Genesis account is just plain wrong from everything after "In the beginning..."
I have studied and found many things that prove the Genesis account. The fact that many different cultures have stories about the flood independently is one small thing. But a few others- The amount of helium in the world. There would not be any left at all if the earth was not young because the amount that the earth is losing is at a steady pace. There is a fantastic book called Starlight and Time that proves that if the Earth was created out of a white hole then the stars could appear so far away because we were on the event horizon. The fact that we all are related to the same mother and this is proven in genetics is another. The amount of mutations that have occurred on the earth show that the earth is young based on the fact that there is a mathematical number that happens and it would be much greater than it is. I could go on ( see http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/ten-best-evidences ) but the problem is that even if there are evidences that point in the direction of proving Genesis and the Bible for whatever reason people are blind to them and do not want to see them.
As for sin, I have sinned. I am still tempted to sin but God helps me avoid temptation and keeps me from sin but I still do sometimes but it grieves Him and me as well. I guess sin is not a problem for you? Where does our conscious come from then? Why do we even have concept of right an wrong? I guess you think that has evolved too?
I am actually quite saddened that yours is a story of lost faith. I don't know what exactly happened that brought you to that point. Did God not come through like you expected Him too? Did someone hurt you deeply or was it just a case of not having small seeds of doubt creep in and take root?
Atheists are far more depressed and attempt suicide more often then Christians BTW http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html
You know where I stand on that!
Here is a movie you will love to hate Rassah:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ
"Can you give me some observable evidence of evolution?"
Sure! Look at your butt. You have a tail. It's under your skin, and is called a coccyx. You have no reason to have that tail, and it is actually more of a hindrance at this point (it can break, it causes pain, it gets in the way), but it's there, only because our ancestors actually had a full tail.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
That gift is for everyone. He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance. He is no respecter of persons. He loves us so much He gave his Son for us. What more could He have possibly done?
But we have a choice to accept His gift or not. You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.
Come on Rassah. We have had this discussion before. I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason. But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth? Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything? There is a price to be paid for sins. We have all committed them. The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.
Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?
Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.
You act like I enjoy the fact that God is punishing people for eternity. Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).
My point was that God loves us all. He wills that all of us come to repentance. Why there is a Hell is beyond my understanding but I did not write the Bible and even though you found it to not be true (I do appreciate that you admit you have at least studied it!) I have found it is true.
Thanks to eve in the garden sin has entered the world and now we have a not so perfect world. (If I was Eve I would have tasted of the forbidden fruit too so she will get no judgement from me on that one) but for whatever reason we now have a fallen planet. It is not as God intended. Hell was not intended for us as humans but for the fallen angels and it grieves God greatly that we choose to go there. Perhaps it is our own choice that sends us there, not God's. It is a different way to look at it.
I'm not acting. You are. You have to, because your religion demands a level of hypocrisy that leads to an unacceptable rate of depression and suicide. Understand, I was a Christian minister at one time. My hatred for that religion knows NO bounds, but I don't hate Christians. Or "god" either. I've simply come to understand that IF there is a god, it's clearly not that one. It doesn't make sense, form top to bottom. You admit in your own post that Eve seeking knowledge was something YOU would do, and you believe in YHVH and it's avatar.
Further, Sin. What precisely is sin? The root word from which it's derived simply means "missing the mark" or "missing the target". It's larger ramifications ONLY matter to those who believe. Frankly, modern Christianity holds on to the doctrine of hell because fear is the only "weapon" left in their arsenal. They cannot anymore win against knowledge, as just about every argument they put forth is EASILY disproven except the existence of a deity and bio-genesis.Note that last one. Not Evolution, Bio-genesis. Evolution, which I'm sure you or another Christian in this thread will soon attack, is the most tested theory there ever was. It is incompatible with the book of Genesis, and Christian doctrine. If the one is true, the other is false. And the one IS demonstrably true. Contrary to Christian claims, evolutionary theory has nothing to do with the ORIGIN of life, thus does not by itself preclude a deity. It precludes YOUR deity, because we have irrefutable evidence that the Genesis account is just plain wrong from everything after "In the beginning..."
I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.
Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?
There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways
that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?
What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world? Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah. It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that. Why does God get the blame for sin?
Then sin must have entered the world hundreds of millions of years ago, at the same time as life did.
You know where I stand on that!
Here is a movie you will love to hate Rassah:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ
I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.
Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?
There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways
that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?
What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world? Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah. It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that. Why does God get the blame for sin?
Then sin must have entered the world hundreds of millions of years ago, at the same time as life did.
Why does God get blamed for it? Because either god is all powerful and created everything, or he is not.
Quote
Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).
False. I have felt that way about a lot of people in the past (bullies mostly). I overcame that hate not because of god, but because I simply decided they are not worth my time and energy.
I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.
Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?
There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways
that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?
What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world? Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah. It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that. Why does God get the blame for sin?
So, what, because Eve decided knowledge was a good idea, all the animals who were "named" a bit earlier divided themselves into predator and prey, virii were introduced, germs started to exist, plants altered their functions to defend or aggress... all because ONE woman had the audacity to learn something?\
Please. You Christians really need to learn something of the physical world before putting your "gospel" in front of even moderately educated people. This is not the dark ages, or even the fifties. This is the age of the internet. The "forbidden fruit" is at EVERYONE's fingertips. Learn new tricks, or your religion will fade into the dustbin of history like the thousands before it.
God's wisdom if foolishness to men. I know that I am not as intelligent as most people on this board. Maybe that is a good thing though. Sometimes the really "smart" people get drunk on their own intelligence. But that said, it seems something I said really ticked you off. I was not trying to do that at all. I just have strong views about my faith as you can see. But I take that as a sign that you have some heated feelings about this. Will pray for whatever it is that has made you so annoyed with Christians.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
That gift is for everyone. He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance. He is no respecter of persons. He loves us so much He gave his Son for us. What more could He have possibly done?
But we have a choice to accept His gift or not. You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.
Come on Rassah. We have had this discussion before. I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason. But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth? Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything? There is a price to be paid for sins. We have all committed them. The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.
Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?
Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.
You act like I enjoy the fact that God is punishing people for eternity. Well, there may have been a few people in my life where I was hopeful for that, but even in those cases God has helped me overcome my hate and pray for them instead of hating them (something only God can do BTW).
My point was that God loves us all. He wills that all of us come to repentance. Why there is a Hell is beyond my understanding but I did not write the Bible and even though you found it to not be true (I do appreciate that you admit you have at least studied it!) I have found it is true.
Thanks to eve in the garden sin has entered the world and now we have a not so perfect world. (If I was Eve I would have tasted of the forbidden fruit too so she will get no judgement from me on that one) but for whatever reason we now have a fallen planet. It is not as God intended. Hell was not intended for us as humans but for the fallen angels and it grieves God greatly that we choose to go there. Perhaps it is our own choice that sends us there, not God's. It is a different way to look at it.
I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.
Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?
There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways
that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?
What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world? Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah. It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that. Why does God get the blame for sin?
So, what, because Eve decided knowledge was a good idea, all the animals who were "named" a bit earlier divided themselves into predator and prey, virii were introduced, germs started to exist, plants altered their functions to defend or aggress... all because ONE woman had the audacity to learn something?\
Please. You Christians really need to learn something of the physical world before putting your "gospel" in front of even moderately educated people. This is not the dark ages, or even the fifties. This is the age of the internet. The "forbidden fruit" is at EVERYONE's fingertips. Learn new tricks, or your religion will fade into the dustbin of history like the thousands before it.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
That gift is for everyone. He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance. He is no respecter of persons. He loves us so much He gave his Son for us. What more could He have possibly done?
How about agree not to torture for all eternity anyone who has either never heard of him, or doesn't think just stories without evidence is enough to believe in him?
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Come on Rassah. We have had this discussion before. I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason. But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth? Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything? There is a price to be paid for sins. We have all committed them. The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.
That frankly sounds sick. Who in their right mind accepts human sacrifice of someone's son in exchange for the bad things they have done? I would rather people pay for their own sins personally. Also, not for all eternity {which is a really long time). And also not for random acts that someone just decides are sin. Not believing in something because there is no evidence for it is not evil, in my view.
BTW, I'm sure I've mentioned it, but if I haven't, I've read the bible all the way through, first when I was about 5, and then a few times again since then. I only really studied it, instead of reading it like a fairy tale, when I started to question it much later.
I think everything is too perfectly created to just assume it suddenly happened out of nowhere.
Why do you believe that everything is too perfectly created? Are you not aware of the massive flukes and flaws that exist in biology and nature?
There are mutations in the world for sure, but I wholeheartedly agree (as you probably know about me anyways
that the world was perfectly created in the beginning.Not just mutations. Diseases, viruses, cancers, extreme inefficiencies in our biology, extreme fragility in our environment, tons of vestigial organs and completely useless body parts in many animals including us... If there was someone intelligent creating all life on earth, why was he so horribly bad at it?
What if everything was perfect until sin entered the world? Sin is pretty much the problem with this world Rassah. It would be an awesome place if it weren't for that. Why does God get the blame for sin?
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Hmm. This just reaffirms my belief that the Christian god is a vain and prideful asshole. Who the hell tortures people for eternity just because they don't give them attention or worship him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
That gift is for everyone. He wills that EVERYONE comes to repentance. He is no respecter of persons. He loves us so much He gave his Son for us. What more could He have possibly done?
But we have a choice to accept His gift or not. You can look at him as prideful and vain but I look at Him as a loving Father that is to be respected but still loves us and wants what is best for us.
Come on Rassah. We have had this discussion before. I know how frustrated you are with the concept of a God that would send anyone at all to Hell for any reason. But is it fair that no one gets punished for the evil they commit on earth? Should people be allowed to get away with anything and everything? There is a price to be paid for sins. We have all committed them. The only ones that will be cleared of them are the ones that accept the blood of God's son as a ransom for those sins.
Dammit, you had to go there. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Pun intended. God, who won't or can't show itself, creates an avatar and has it destroyed, briefly, so that "we" are all "saved" from "sin". Convenient, eh?
Try that in life. Kill somebody, then blame it all on them. You will hang. Further, all of the "justifications" in the world do not forgive the very IDEA that a being that is mortal deserves ETERNAL damnation, regardless of what they may have done to other mortals. Also, as an anarchist, I'm in favor of compensatory justice, not punitive. Punishment only works to CORRECT a behaviour. Punishment that never ends is evidence of sadism, and nothing else.
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