Topic: The problem with atheism. - page 23. (Read 38470 times)

I think that what can be proven you cannot know, and what you can know cannot be proven.  This is because absolute knowledge is obtained through direct experience (not an experience 'of something,' but through experience, period) while 'proving' requires we reach indirectly to 'evidence' that is abstractly interpreted.

If I've felt the warmth of the sun on my face, I can't prove that to you no matter how many thermometers I find or no matter how many times I tell you I felt that warmth.  Ultimately, you need to trust that either I'm not lying or that thermometers are an objective measure of something subjective such as a warm feeling.  The experience of warmth is something that is known but cannot be proven.

As far as "Why does God reveal himself to the stoner," I can tell you that the Bible says, "Seek and you shall find," but note that it does not tell you what to seek.  It simply says to 'seek.'  While I denounced Christianity long ago (I was raised Catholic, denounced it and became a strict atheist, then eventually denounced atheism after I experienced it to be false), my experience resonates with several Bible passages, including this one.  Because of my experience in meditation I understand the power of "seeking" without having a predetermined object of search in mind.  If you observe purely and unbiased, such as in a meditative state where experience clearly diverges from the abstraction of it, absolute truth will reveal itself to you. 

Every photographer knows that to get an image with the most clarity, he must be totally still.  If he's bouncing around or moving while trying to take a picture, the resulting image will be blurry.  You need to learn to be like a good photographer, to still your mind and to observe with single-pointed concentration.  If you do, everything will become much more clear to you.

We will all be judged guilty, regardless of our belief or unbelief in God if we do not accept Him.  We are already condemned just by being born into a fallen world.  But there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.  Jesus pays our debt if we just accept that free gift. This will tick most of you off here but I am saying that to be an athiest does make someone much more likely to go to Hell.  (Perhaps they have a chance in Sheol to accept or deny Christ there) But an athiest will not be able to stand in front of God and say, "Oh sorry.  I did not think you are real."  The Bible says in Matthew 10:33 "But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven."

Of course I am still learning. You can call it arrogant if you want, but I believe the Bible is true.  Sure I see truths in other religions and can study other religions (all religions have some elements of truth in them or no one would follow them) but the Bible has become my yardstick so to speak. It is my measuring stick in which to judge if things are true or not and how I need to live my life.  I need to "Hide God's word in my heart so that I might not sin against him."  The more I know the bible, the less likely I am to fall and make choices that go against God's will.

I like these better

Agnosticism: "There might be a monster in Loch Ness."
Theism: "There is a monster in Loch Ness and I know some people who have personally experienced it but I have no evidence."
Atheism: "There is no evidence that there is a monster in Loch Ness, or that there ever was a monster in Loch Ness, and thus the idea of a monster in Loch Ness is simply irrelevant and shouldn't even be taken into consideration.  Knowing what we know the idea is ridiculous and contradictory.  It's basically just an old myth."

It's not about "the scientists." Anyone can should mustuse the Scientific Method to the best of their abilities. Accept that you or they can be wrong.

 
Well firstly they can't show me logical, mathematical and empirical evidence of God because there is none.
 
But it would sound to me like they have taken psychedelic drugs.  Or something like that.  The brain is very imperfect, it doesn't have the precision of a computer hard-drive and can malfunction when on drugs, or if you are just generally feeling unhealthy or for all kinds of reasons.  Or maybe they are just lying.  Who knows?  

Why does God reveal himself to the stoner but not to the many thousands of very normal people who live their lives well and have never claimed to see God?   God must have a strange sense of humour.

And how does having a personal experience of god explain people from other religions who have claimed the same thing about their god or gods and don't have a psychiatric history?  I guess they were just hallucinating?

Does that mean you have quit searching? Because that is the biggest problem with and the biggest evil about religion: people believe they have found the truth, are content in thinking they now know everything important they need to know, and never bother to continue to progress beyond where they are. Like during the Dark Ages, when God was all the truth anyone needed, and anyone continuing to search was obviously not content enough with god, and thus should be burned or killed for being a heathen.

Sorry, that's not how I look at it, and not how I believe the definition applies. It should be:

Agnosticism: "There might be a moose in these woods."
Theism: "There is a moose in these woods, but I have no evidence."
Atheism: "There is no evidence that there is a moose in the woods, or that there ever was a moose in the woods, and thus the idea of a moose in the woods is simply irrelevant and shouldn't even be taken into consideration."

Clearly the atheist position is the most logical one, as the agnostic one would have to take into consideration every single creature that may or may not exist, or every single god or deity that was ever invented, to stay agnostic. Do you consider that every good w ever thought of might exist? And how does that affect your life?

Actually, it's trivially easy to ignore, when that statement doesn't make any sense. Perhaps you can elaborate on it somewhat? What do you mean by language being emergent everywhere? Obviously there are vast spans of our universe that have never experienced or been subject to the concept of "language."

Wasn't to me, but I'll take a stab...


Meaning is only subjective to the person experiencing it. A big ball of spinning fusing gas is meaningless. Some carbon-water bag hundreds of thousands of miles away is meaningless to the big ball of spinning fusing gas. But that ball of gas is quite important and meaningful to the carbon-water bag. So everything is generally meaningless to everything else, and only has relative subjective meaning to some...


I would ignore that proof as irrelevant, and simply point out that "mental" involves chemical and electrical signals perceiving and reacting to the already existing universe. The universe would continue to exist whether there are brains with sensory organs around to sense and react to it. And that's what separates us from the rest of the universe: we react to what exists, and what exists will exist with our without our reaction. For example, people who are wheel chair bound consider their chair as a part of them - as a part or extension of their body - despite it not actually being a part of their body. That's because the chair is such a part of their life and under their control that it might as well be a part of their body. The rest of the world they live in is not.


I'll let you know when I realize it. So far I'm nowhere near that.


Fantasy v.s. things supported by empirical evidence and logic.


Good for them. Their experience is irrelevant to me, and everyone else, since their experience is singular and theirs alone. It's like if I was to say, the second pea in every pea pod makes me break out in hives and gives me allergies. Not all peas, just that one. That's meaningless to you, and doesn't mean you should start avoiding those peas, or giving them any consideration. So, it's great that you had an experience with god, but it has no effect or relevance to my life, no matter how much you yourself may be convinced that it does (also, there is more evidence to suggest you are crazy than to suggest that God is real).

Simply because our overall effect on the universe is so close to zero it might as well be zero. At most only about 200,000 light year radius around us is even aware of our existence, and that's a teeny tiny insignificant part of the universe, too.

You miss my point. What I'm trying to say is that you can believe whatever you want in this life and God (if he exists) won't condemn you based on that. Sure, there are other sins. That's obvious. We all make mistakes and do bad things at points in our life. But not believing in God does not mean he will be more likely to send us to hell (or, in your analogy, judge us guilty). That's my point.

So it is better not to believe in God because that equals a free pass to heaven because they are an atheist?  There is nothing in the Bible that says that.  Atheism is a belief more then techincally a "sin" I guess.  Perhaps that is where they are going with that?  Regardless,  the Bible is clear that all have sinned.  There is no one righteous. So regardless if Atheism is the sin that damns someone to hell is irrelevant.  There will be plenty of other "sins" to choose from that will be enough to do that.  I look at it like going to a court of law.  Let say I broke a law but did not know it was wrong.  The court could still find me guilty of breaking that law and send me to jail.  But if someone paid my debt for me I would be exonerated.  The same thing applies to us in regards to hell.  We are all damned to go there even if we do not believe in it.  God is the judge.  He will determine if our debt has been paid.  If we accept his free gift of salvation then we will be able to stand in the "trial" and be freed.

The entirety of genesis 1-15 is about humans trying to become divine or become god and god punishing them for that. So, even of one does believe in Jesus, one is not ready to become Jesus.

I have asked priests from both Christian and catholic beliefs and both day that being an atheist is not a sin and it does not equate to a trip to hell in the afterlife if there is one.

Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray

No one can become Jesus.  We can try to be like Him though.

If one cannot believe in Jesus, is one ready to become Jesus?

Why do you think Christians come across so desperate?  Christians are hated for witnessing and for sending out missionaries by many because they do not want to sit up in heaven without others.  Hey, I am even hated by some on here for sharing my beliefs.  But we share because we are concerned.  However, we realize that everyone does have free will and can choose to believe or not.  I cannot do anything about that.  The Bible says that there will be no more crying and no more pain in heaven so I am not sure about how it won't bother us that there are people not in heaven with us.  I have pondered that as well but do not have the answer.

In an earlier post I mentioned my unusual thoughts on hell compared to some Christians. I see that the Catholic teaching of Purgatory might be a little more correct (not that indulgences or praying for dead people works) but that God is fair and everyone will get a chance.  So in Sheol people will still get a chance to accept or reject.  I do think that those that reject Jesus here on earth might not get a second chance though.  Perhaps they have already made their choice?    

More false assumptions.  I have had direct contact with god under the influence of psychedelics and sober.  First time I saw god, an amazing curved line figure appeared from energy.  It was god, as if I had seen the most beautiful thing in my life.

I thought "What's your name?" and immediately I knew that it had no name for it was everything, consciousness, it only has whatever name we give it.


Let me clarify on the concept of eternal hell fire.  You are currently in hell.  Hell is a space time universe where negativity exists, such as earth.  The goal of life is to die at peace, for when you die at peace, you ascend upwards in dimensions.  If you die in fear or fail to believe in an after life, you reincarnate on earth like planets until you find your soul and find heaven.

So yes, if you believe you will burn for eternity (literally or metaphorically) it may happen, indefinitely.  What matters is your last moment though, nothing before that comes into play just if you are at peace.

There are infinite spirits in hell just as there are infinite spirits in heaven.  You don't feel bad for those in hell when you're in heaven (you can but you don't), for you understand their life is part of their evolution and they will one day find eternal paradise.  If you feel bad for those in hell, you do what I did.  You choose a life as some sort of ego destroying jesus type warrior and you go to that planet to spread the word of god, the word of love.  Great way to make lots of friends.

So let's say I deny 100% of holy books, not just 99.5% of them like you do.  That means I am going to your cult's hell.  For ALL ETERNITY I am to be punished constantly and furiously with no rest.  And you're sitting up in heaven, knowing I am down there with billions of others, and you can experience paradise?  It doesn't bother you in any way?