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Topic: The reason that keeps me from investing in bitcoin - page 15. (Read 15436 times)

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 105

Bitcoin is meant to be an investment, not a mainstream currency that is meant to be used everyday. You don't buy groceries with bitcoin since it isn't ready to be used as a mainstream currency. We, the community are still working out the kinks to it.

I'd like to see where this is stated, even if indirectly, in the original whitepaper.
If you think about it, the block chain doesn't encourage daily spending. The way bitcoin was  made, with the miners encouraged what you said, greed.

As block rewards keep decreasing, the view of looking at bitcoin as an everyday currency decreases, since to make up for the lost block rewards, miner fees would have to be increased. This makes bitcoin useless for smaller dust transaction fees, and encourages people to just hold bitcoin as an investment.

It took me about 20 min to write...all of that has been swirling in my head for years.  This is just the first time I put it all down in one place.  Thanks for the props.  While you have a point that even if it's not stated explicitly on the white paper, there needs to be daily spending for the average person to trust it, therefore propelling it into the stratosphere.  If the average consumer sees it as an "investment", BTC will be rendered to the same status as pork bellies in the next 2-3 years.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 509

Bitcoin is meant to be an investment, not a mainstream currency that is meant to be used everyday. You don't buy groceries with bitcoin since it isn't ready to be used as a mainstream currency. We, the community are still working out the kinks to it.

I'd like to see where this is stated, even if indirectly, in the original whitepaper.
If you think about it, the block chain doesn't encourage daily spending. The way bitcoin was  made, with the miners encouraged what you said, greed.

As block rewards keep decreasing, the view of looking at bitcoin as an everyday currency decreases, since to make up for the lost block rewards, miner fees would have to be increased. This makes bitcoin useless for smaller dust transaction fees, and encourages people to just hold bitcoin as an investment.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 509
The OP has a point.  Bitcoin was designed to be a means to pay for goods and services without the interference of governments and central banks.  In other words it was designed for average people that want to buy sandwiches using something other than fiat currency.  This is absolutely fundamental to the arguments for or against Bitcoin in general, regardless of it being an investment vehicle.  What I see as a huge problem on this forum that seems to consume the majority of those involved in Bitcoin is that they ONLY see it as an investment.  It wasn't designed to be an investment.  It just so happens, due to it being first and the best publicized, it has turned into something that most people who are aware of it see SOLELY as an investment.  I can feel the denials formulating already.  But whenever I've been asked about it by random people who have no experience in investing, they have NO CONCEPT of it being used as a currency.  Even if they do, they have no clue how they'd use it to buy goods and services.

This is not a formula for stability or growth.  For the sake of full disclosure, I was aware of Bitcoin back in 2011 if not earlier.  Where I live I didn't trust the buying process and the hassle of it made me miss the boat.  I had at least $10,000 at the time that was in my mind to SPECULATE on it as something similar to any other currency.  That was then...and back then people who were interested in Bitcoin were NOTHING like the attitudes that I deduce in the posts that I see.  Back then people were realistic (2011).  Now I feel like I'm witnessing a modern version of Tulip-mania....people who are utterly blinded and consumed by greed.

First, supply of coins is irrelevant.  There could be one BTC split into 21,000,000 pieces, 200,000,000 pieces, etc.  Each piece can literally be the same value of one individual coin.

Second, the as price goes up the odds of becoming a millionaire fall precipitously.  If most people were having these conversations back in 2011 or earlier, you'd have valid points about the potential for vast future wealth.  But at $3,000+ those days are over.  You've missed the proverbial boat.  Certainly you have a chance of making money...but most of you need to accept that you are speculating....you are no longer investing.  Again, the vast majority of money sitting and holding BTC are not using it to buy or sell.  The fact that it went up as much as it did this year essentially proves that 90-95% holding BTC are just speculators that have no intention of ever using it to buy something.  In fact I have yet to meet anyone holding BTC that has actually bought anything with it.

I don't understand why so many people don't see a problem with this.  The only thing I can attribute it to is age and inexperience.  As an experienced investor myself, I made 1300% investing in UTILITY stocks over a period of 9 years.  For those that don't know what that means, it says that I made more money investing in the most stable, non-volatile type of company than even the best performing mutual funds over the same period of time.  I'm not saying that this makes me an expert or an oracle.  All I'm saying is that I got in at the best possible time...but with respect to these companies now, they've barely moved in the past 3 years.

IMO...the price and individual investor profile of the average holder of BTC is resembles that of a Ponzi scheme.  The cheerleading for the price to only go higher with the assumptions that drops and pullbacks can only possibly be temporary only strengthens my fears.  People don't want to face the facts that other currencies can come out with better features than BTC, governments can (and are working on) issue their own altcoins that will offer more stability to merchants in day-to-day transactions...and this is what most merchants care about.  People have argued with me before that restaurants, for example, will hold their BTC for the sake of "investment".  These same individuals obviously know nothing about what it means to be in the food industry.  If a restauranteur is going to invest in BTC they'll do it on their own time after profits have been cleared.  It's an apples vs. oranges thing...much to the dismay of speculators who believe that everyone shares their enthusiasm.

So what keeps me from investing in BTC?  The price has gone up too far too fast.  There are far too many speculators and not even close to enough day-to-day users that put their coins to use to buy or sell.  There are too many governments working on their own coins that the average consumer (not speculator) will prefer to use.  I'm as libertarian as one can be, but I know that most people do not think like I do.  Bitcoins scare them because they don't understand it.  They understand their fiat currencies enough to trust their use, even if they are largely clueless to the fraud and theft that they represent.  I think that the average person on the forum needs to wake up to this reality as well.

My own beliefs....if BTC falls into the $1500-2000 range over the next 6-12 months, buy as much as you can and dump it after gains of 40-100% depending on how fast it runs up.  If someone is buying it now, you are committing the most common mistake of those who lose their money in markets...buying on "highs" and letting greed rule.  I could be wrong, but historically (and even on BTC charts) I'm probably not.  Good luck and rethink your strategies....since so far I don't see many strategies for how BTC could be treated as an investment...which requires arguments "against".  All I see is greed and entitlement.

Holy crap, that is a huge essay, how long did it take you to write it. First post and you have already made a huge impression on a lot of readers here.

Bitcoin was designed for average people to buy products without interference from the government, but the blockchain is too congested for it to do so.

Everything else is well written and I agree with it. You write a mean essay!
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 105

Bitcoin is meant to be an investment, not a mainstream currency that is meant to be used everyday. You don't buy groceries with bitcoin since it isn't ready to be used as a mainstream currency. We, the community are still working out the kinks to it.

I'd like to see where this is stated, even if indirectly, in the original whitepaper.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 509
Well, it looks like segwit did really lower the cost, now the fees are only around 1/3 of the before fees. Looks like making smaller transactions is easier than before but the fees are still pretty high.

Bitcoin is meant to be an investment, not a mainstream currency that is meant to be used everyday. You don't buy groceries with bitcoin since it isn't ready to be used as a mainstream currency. We, the community are still working out the kinks to it.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 105
The OP has a point.  Bitcoin was designed to be a means to pay for goods and services without the interference of governments and central banks.  In other words it was designed for average people that want to buy sandwiches using something other than fiat currency.  This is absolutely fundamental to the arguments for or against Bitcoin in general, regardless of it being an investment vehicle.  What I see as a huge problem on this forum that seems to consume the majority of those involved in Bitcoin is that they ONLY see it as an investment.  It wasn't designed to be an investment.  It just so happens, due to it being first and the best publicized, it has turned into something that most people who are aware of it see SOLELY as an investment.  I can feel the denials formulating already.  But whenever I've been asked about it by random people who have no experience in investing, they have NO CONCEPT of it being used as a currency.  Even if they do, they have no clue how they'd use it to buy goods and services.

This is not a formula for stability or growth.  For the sake of full disclosure, I was aware of Bitcoin back in 2011 if not earlier.  Where I live I didn't trust the buying process and the hassle of it made me miss the boat.  I had at least $10,000 at the time that was in my mind to SPECULATE on it as something similar to any other currency.  That was then...and back then people who were interested in Bitcoin were NOTHING like the attitudes that I deduce in the posts that I see.  Back then people were realistic (2011).  Now I feel like I'm witnessing a modern version of Tulip-mania....people who are utterly blinded and consumed by greed.

First, supply of coins is irrelevant.  There could be one BTC split into 21,000,000 pieces, 200,000,000 pieces, etc.  Each piece can literally be the same value of one individual coin.

Second, the as price goes up the odds of becoming a millionaire fall precipitously.  If most people were having these conversations back in 2011 or earlier, you'd have valid points about the potential for vast future wealth.  But at $3,000+ those days are over.  You've missed the proverbial boat.  Certainly you have a chance of making money...but most of you need to accept that you are speculating....you are no longer investing.  Again, the vast majority of money sitting and holding BTC are not using it to buy or sell.  The fact that it went up as much as it did this year essentially proves that 90-95% holding BTC are just speculators that have no intention of ever using it to buy something.  In fact I have yet to meet anyone holding BTC that has actually bought anything with it.

I don't understand why so many people don't see a problem with this.  The only thing I can attribute it to is age and inexperience.  As an experienced investor myself, I made 1300% investing in UTILITY stocks over a period of 9 years.  For those that don't know what that means, it says that I made more money investing in the most stable, non-volatile type of company than even the best performing mutual funds over the same period of time.  I'm not saying that this makes me an expert or an oracle.  All I'm saying is that I got in at the best possible time...but with respect to these companies now, they've barely moved in the past 3 years.

IMO...the price and individual investor profile of the average holder of BTC is resembles that of a Ponzi scheme.  The cheerleading for the price to only go higher with the assumptions that drops and pullbacks can only possibly be temporary only strengthens my fears.  People don't want to face the facts that other currencies can come out with better features than BTC, governments can (and are working on) issue their own altcoins that will offer more stability to merchants in day-to-day transactions...and this is what most merchants care about.  People have argued with me before that restaurants, for example, will hold their BTC for the sake of "investment".  These same individuals obviously know nothing about what it means to be in the food industry.  If a restauranteur is going to invest in BTC they'll do it on their own time after profits have been cleared.  It's an apples vs. oranges thing...much to the dismay of speculators who believe that everyone shares their enthusiasm.

So what keeps me from investing in BTC?  The price has gone up too far too fast.  There are far too many speculators and not even close to enough day-to-day users that put their coins to use to buy or sell.  There are too many governments working on their own coins that the average consumer (not speculator) will prefer to use.  I'm as libertarian as one can be, but I know that most people do not think like I do.  Bitcoins scare them because they don't understand it.  They understand their fiat currencies enough to trust their use, even if they are largely clueless to the fraud and theft that they represent.  I think that the average person on the forum needs to wake up to this reality as well.

My own beliefs....if BTC falls into the $1500-2000 range over the next 6-12 months, buy as much as you can and dump it after gains of 40-100% depending on how fast it runs up.  If someone is buying it now, you are committing the most common mistake of those who lose their money in markets...buying on "highs" and letting greed rule.  I could be wrong, but historically (and even on BTC charts) I'm probably not.  Good luck and rethink your strategies....since so far I don't see many strategies for how BTC could be treated as an investment...which requires arguments "against".  All I see is greed and entitlement.
sr. member
Activity: 644
Merit: 261
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley

As what you said, you don't need the money for next 2 to 3 years so it will be a good investment for you. Bitcoin may not be good for a day to day transaction nowadays because of the high fees and it would only be an advantage if you transact with it with higher amount for the fees not to have a major effect in the transaction. Bitcoin's value is continually increasing so maybe your investment today will be 2 - 5 times in value in the next 2 to three years.
hero member
Activity: 2184
Merit: 891
Leading Crypto Sports Betting and Casino Platform
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley

I keep on investing on bitcoin because it has high price. I continue to invest on it because my money grows higher. Even though it is not yet stable and it has high transaction fee. It is easy to manipulate your money through bitcoin. So I keep on investing on it.

Yeah. Also my thoughts. I also keeps on investing bitcoin because of its volatility. As like many traders, its pump and dump are the reason we get attracted because we all know that the price will continous to rise because of its instability. That over time our coins will be so much valuable than ever. And of course the big whales are just watching us for pumps and dumps.
full member
Activity: 336
Merit: 100
Yes. Buying bitcoin is a good thing. In the coming time, it is value will continue to increase, we will be highly profitable and like you buy gold reserves. Now you buy reserve bitcoin Currently the government is slowly accepting bitcoin, you should buy it.
full member
Activity: 241
Merit: 100
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley

Your problem is that the fee is high?
I do not see it as high compared to the profit I earn
You should learn to accept loss if you want to succeed. So, think again about investing in Bitcoin, which is the fastest way to become rich
full member
Activity: 276
Merit: 100
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley

I keep on investing on bitcoin because it has high price. I continue to invest on it because my money grows higher. Even though it is not yet stable and it has high transaction fee. It is easy to manipulate your money through bitcoin. So I keep on investing on it.

I agree to it that bitcoin keeps your money grow. As a student, I have my bitcoin and let it grow until I can have money for my future expenses. Bitcoin makes me think about money, it is better to wait for your bitcoin to grow than to use it immediately. Investing in bitcoin is a choice make. If you want your money to double, it is better to invest on bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 334
Merit: 102
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley

I keep on investing on bitcoin because it has high price. I continue to invest on it because my money grows higher. Even though it is not yet stable and it has high transaction fee. It is easy to manipulate your money through bitcoin. So I keep on investing on it.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 11
Buying sandwiches is not the main use case of Bitcoin, at the end of the day you can use your visa to do this without major problems. The beauty of Bitcoin lies in providing a decentralized and secure way of storing value.
But if you are patient, someday you will be able to buy your sandwich with Bitcoin, after features like lightning channels are available.
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 655
As for my reason why I am investing in Bitcoin, well I don't really put my money in Bitcoin but what Bitcoin I earn I hold it in my wallet and hope the price will grow. Also for spending as well , I will just use my Bitcoin as my last resort if I really don't have any fiat currency left. So there is no reason for me to spend my Bitcoin,  it is like a great chance for me to save as many as I can because it is a perfect opportunity for people who are on a tight budget.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley
The reason why I keep on investing on bitcoin is because of its features that attracted not just me but also the people around the world that is also investing on bitcoin. The first thing that keeps me on investing on bitcoin is it provides income online and in addition to that, bitcoin's price is continuously changing that provides larger kickback of profit enabling me to have more than the usual. Also its fast transaction and decentralized block chain.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 502
I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

If you have money, do not hesitate to invest on bitcoin, consider it as your long term investment as bitcoin value will always increases as time goes on, as has been proven so far.
Bitcoin created to be an alternative currency, but the problem is bitcoin can't afford too many transactions every second, so the fees increase in order to process transaction faster. yes, who wants to buy $2 fee for $5 burger? No one. That's why we've been waiting for segwit be activated and be solved those problems. I think SegWit can do that, but time will tell us the truth whether is it really works or just temporary solution?

I think if you are looking to invest for long term, Bitcoin is the best alternative as compare to Stocks or Mutual Funds. Why? Because overall, bitcoin's performance is much better as compare to both, specially this year alone. Do down 5-10 years from now, probably if you invest now, your profit could be x5 or even x10 of your initial capital. So its a good to add your your current investment portfolio.

The reason that keeps me on investing into bitcoin isee because it is the strange thing that I have but although it is strange it do provide income to help my mom in our daily expenses. Also I can hold it for a long period of time wherein I can gain because bitcoin's price is keep on rising from time to time.

Looks like you are not investing but looking at bitcoin as means to provide you and your mom income. But if you could it then it can really benefit you longer time. Yes, the price fluctuation of bitcoin is on our side now because its keeps rising day in day out. We can see profit that way.
Stocks are not a rival to bitcoin, at best a stock will go up 10% every year, bitcoin in this year alone is up about 500%, you can earn in bitcoin in a single year more than what you could investing in stocks for 20 years if that does not tell you which one is the best then I do not know what to tell to people like that.
copper member
Activity: 2968
Merit: 575
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
You are right, but here si the thing.

When we do transactions they will show on the network instantly.

The problem is to wait for confirmations, which requires fees.

However, for Burger King they do not require any confirmations so they can use small fees like credit cards just like $0.05 (5 cents) which is nothing but the transactions will clear after 24 hours.
Why even bother using bitcoins if credit cards are getting involved. Credit cards and bitcoins don't seem to go along and bitcoins actually ends up losing its  supremacy. And I don't see the logic here. How will using fee from CC help?
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 255
You are right, but here si the thing.

When we do transactions they will show on the network instantly.

The problem is to wait for confirmations, which requires fees.

However, for Burger King they do not require any confirmations so they can use small fees like credit cards just like $0.05 (5 cents) which is nothing but the transactions will clear after 24 hours.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1008
I don't think that there should be a reason for you to keep away from investing in Bitcoin. If you are afraid of the risks, you should not invest in the first place because every investment has a risk. There isno investment that has no risk and with guaranteed returns. Those risk are manageable as long as you understand what you are investing to. Conducting your own research and studies will help you.
too naive to say there's no risk in an investment. just simply thinking about this : the supply of bitcoin limited , fixed and when the supply almost empty and a lot of people looking for bitcoin what would happened then ? guess what? the value would get higher and higher no doubt, so even then 'if' the fee remain high , the future of bitcoin still as bright as before.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Hello everybody.

I would like to invest some money in bitcoin, I don't use that money and I don't need it for the next 2/3 years.
I thought I found in bitcoin the perfect way to invest. BUT when I see the fees applied I don't see how the bitcoin will become mainstream! The fees are around 1mBTC which is approximatively 3$. Therefore what is the point of bitcoin?

The only thing I see : big amount transaction

But bitcoin won't be the money you use to buy your sandwich with those fees!

I saw a post saying: yeah burger king is willing to accept bitcoin in russia. Hopefully mcdonald will follow ! But why would someone pay 3$ fee therefore a third of his burger king menu in fee?

Will segwit may lower the fees?

Thank you Smiley
The reason that keeps me on investing into bitcoin isee because it is the strange thing that I have but although it is strange it do provide income to help my mom in our daily expenses. Also I can hold it for a long period of time wherein I can gain because bitcoin's price is keep on rising from time to time.
I don't see any persuasive opinion that keeps everybody from investing in Bitcoin. To me more and more people will approach Bitcoin and start investing in Bitcoin. Its price is very stable now and it will go higher time by time. Hopefully It will be acceptable by all countries in the world.
Why not have persuasive opinion? Many opinion for people hate cryptocurrency and never investing to it. Example the value of it is virtual, temporary by the mentality of community using it, can increasing or decreasing any time depending they like or hate.
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