Topic: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action - page 2. (Read 39377 times)

Hey bcp, that's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that a US company, paid in US dollars, has no legal right to deny a refund before a delivery has taken place. If you ask for your money back, you're supposed to get it. They don't give it to you, you can sue them. How hard is this to understand?

If one was ordering goods from a shack somewhere in a shady part of Asia and paid in BTC I'd agree with the notion "win some, lose some" but the whole point of ordering from a US company and their huge price premium over other companies is some peace of mind that, if necessary, they can be held to account.

Thanks for playing!

Yes, I did know the risks, as I had read all the troll posts about how bad BFL was going all the way to through the FPGA days, so I knew quite well that it was unreasonable to expect anything within 2 months, especially as they had only just started shipping in minute quantities and appeared to be going through a rework.  I well knew that with the price spike in Mar/Apr that I was MONTHS behind the curve, but it was more palatable to purchase something that would mine 15x as much as that tinker toy did for roughly the same price.  The funny thing to me in all of this is that you all said BFL was a scam and that my money was GONE, etc, etc, etc.  Here it is, 6-7 months later, all those units you said would never ship have shipped and if you order now you can get it from in stock at TD!  Hellova scam to actually ship things to people who ordered.

Why are they trolls?  Why are you a troll?  Seems the questions have the same answer...

Don't have a cat, you should already know I own a Z-28 as I offered to sell it to you months ago and I'll just recycle those pictures of your sister I found on the net last week.

Realized I didn't answer your question... I'm not ridiculing it, it's just that you and others harp constantly on buying and holding... buying and holding... Zzzzzzz.. Wha?

Buying something and waiting is a snoozefest, and if that is all you have to advocate on this forum then all you are is pathetic.  Spending hard earned cash to purchase Bitcoin means that it then has intrinsic value and becomes harder to work with.  I mined all my original Bitcoins and therefore I truly have virtually nothing invested in them, so I play with them and end up making more of them.  I have freedom now that I wouldn't have if I had spent money to buy them.  Personally I think my purchase was one of the best things I ever did, cause it led me here and led me to alt coins and led me to exchanges and led me to the investments I made and led me to where I am today.  I am richer because of BFL and these forums, but I have not received a dime for anything I have posted on here. 

No. You did not "know" the risks. BFL misinformed you. Had BFL been honest and forthright with their issues instead of regurgitating "two more weeks", then you would have known the risks. Mr Meissner has a case, it is up to a judge (and possibly jury) to decide what sort of damages are in order.

Why are they "trolls" if they accurately point out something? Do you have to ridicule people who present facts inconvenient to your argument?

We also don't care what color your cat is, what kind of car you drive, and if you have erectile dysfunction. However, this being the internet, if any of your lady friends have nice tits, we would appreciate pics. 

Raccoons find insulation on wiring to be quite tasty!

I see you have to resort to name calling and insults as well.  While you view it as bragging, the information I put out when I first started posting here was in truth troolbait.  You and many others jumped all over it, as I expect you to, because you cannot take simple truth as simple truth, you have to belittle it and put labels on it and basically try to shame it out of existence.  Sadly for you, I do not depend on your opinion to know who I am, so your insults are just water off my back as you are just another anonymous troll frothing at the bit because you feel superior to those you consider noobs.

The point you and others fail to see is that it doesn't matter that it's BFL who is getting sued, I would have said the same thing if someone sued Avalon or Hashfast or any other late shipper and made wild and inaccurate claims about what they could have expected.  I deal in cold hard facts, as this guy is using supposition and basically outright lies to obfuscate the truth and make it seem he was wronged to an extent that is not possible.  If he's lying about that, how much of the rest of his story is not also a lie?  You and the rest don't stop to consider that aspect of this, if he's willing to lie about his 'losses' then why would he NOT be willing to lie about the rest?

You bring up 'when I first got here', so let's step back a moment.  Numerous people on this forum told me that I had gotten scammed when I let it be known I had purchased a Jalapeno.  Many of you pointed at ASICMiner and said THAT was the route I should have taken.  So, where would I be today IF I had gone 'the other route'?

I ordered from BFL on June 6th, so let's say I ordered from ASICMiner instead.  2BTC or ~$250 to purchase .333MH VS the $274 to purchase 5GH.  Let's say I received my AM USB in 1 week from purchase and mined continuously until today.  I would have earned .56752BTC if I had gone with AM.  In reality, I had my BFL Jalapeno in hand on Nov 29 and when I plugged it in, it was running right around 10GH.  I'm sure you rabid type will insist that that was some sort of payment for my defense of the company on these forums, but I doubt it, as I would think they'd have shipped it to me early if that were the case.  Anyway, I *have* mined .28504 BTC with my little 10GH, so in this instance the trolls were actually right, I would have been better off if I had bought the USB, but it sure would not have felt right.  I gambled and lost, I knew the risks, as I'm sure Mr. Meissner did as well, and I backed the wrong horse.  Lastly, there's the other trolls that will jump in and accurately point out that I could have just bought BTC and held onto it in a cold wallet and been better off now no pain, no gain.

Obviously my inability to grasp simple logic is the reason behind why I now have well in excess of 100 BTC when I have mined so little over the months.  While playing with you trolls verbally in this forum, I also played with financial trolls in the exchanges and beat them at their own game.  The information I used to amass my coins is available to everyone out there, but I was able to get over a 2,000% return while others lost their shirt.  Now I'm sure you're going to try and pull the "Oh, don't you feel bad...".  Nope, we're all adults here and we all know the risks.  I've made my bonehead trades same as others, but I've made far more intelligent ones.  I'm not one of the lucky ones to have heard about BTC in it's infancy and be sitting on millions of dollars, but I did turn $300 worth of BTC into over $100K, so I can see why you'd think I fail to see simple logic.

Now, before you go on yet another rant about bragging, stop.  This is information, pure and simple. and it is true.  It is also troll-bait, as I know you guys can't help yourselves and I love seeing how posting simple truths makes your eyes pop out and your mouths froth while you try and belittle once again that which you do not understand.  So, now that you know the truth, go ahead, jump in, I need a good laugh now and then.

Uh, dude.............................................................

BFL is physically located in Overland Park, KANSAS.................................................

FYI.

I sincerely hope BFL executives go to jail for fraud (again). BFL lied to me and robbed me. I already filed a report with the Kansas AG. This page looks interesting, also...

Kansas city police, fraud department.
http://www.kcmo.org/police/Crime/Fraud/index.htm

He is a paid agent for BFL. Simple as that. Same techniques employed by any number of BFL types posting here.

1. Misdirect & Lie
2. Ignore Factual Information
3. Attack the Person

BFL is going to have a day of reckoning and then these paid shills will simply disappear.

BCP19 is a stone cold troll, he lacks basic common sense and logic when it comes to his beloved BFL.  He came on this forum bragging about his super high genius level IQ and yet can't grasp simple logical arguments, constantly trying to use misdirection to muddy the waters.

This prick has a hidden agenda or he is just a retarded moron with massive blinders.

So he should be suing for less. Only 200-300 grand perhaps. Doesn't change the fact he got fucked over with false promises and no delivery, not to mention no refund (which is plainly not according to the law)

Lawsuits are usually "ask a lot, get something". His argument is that he was fucked over, you're arguing about the extent of it, not against the fact that he indeed was.

Even if he got the correct amount of mined coins wrong  That's the basis for his whole arguement dude, he's claiming HE could have mined $5,000,000 worth of BTC.  Since what one of you could have done all of you could have done (ala Unacceptable), every mini-rig owner should also be suing for $5,000,000.  Can you even fathom the fact that 200+ mini-rigs put onto the network back in June would have caused an increase in the network speed of 300TH?  That would have tripled the hash rate and cut the mining income per person across the board by 66%.  Even Bickfailski cannot argue that this would not have happened as this is elementary math.  You are like the other trolls around here, since you are unable to come up with a cogent rationale for your arguements, you resort to name calling and foul language.  Any neanderthal can toss out insults and swear like a sailor, why don't you come up with a reasoned and intelligent response instead of rolling in the gutter filth that you seem to live in?

@Bickfailski:  You still amaze me.  The course of action you propose would only do 1 thing: enrich the lawyers.

He lacks the intestinal and ethical fortitude to tell the truth. I suspect like you said he has been paid to obfuscate what are clear facts about how BFL operates. Everyone should simply ignore him as he has been unwilling to accept basic facts about BFL and rarely adds anything relevant to the discussion anyhow. Need to focus people on the merits of suing BFL. Once the precedent is set BFL will likely need to declare bankruptcy so that Josh and others at the top can walk off with proceeds. No one who has watched what BFL is doing in any depth believes BFL is an honest broker in the BitCoin world. I suspect most customers will never buy again and that is telling.

Its not full of BS even if he got the correct amount of probable mined coins wrong.

BFL didnt even deliver his mining Rigs. Deceiving him about the shipment time frame. Your post is infact full of BS. It only take an idiot to see you're a BFL employee. What a piece of shit that you are.

All of the other laughs in this farcical document aside, this one makes me ROFL the most:


Using http://bfl.ptx.ro is can be seen that there are ~185 "known" (known is a loosely used term as this site has no guarantee of accuracy) minirig orders and of these 120 are listed as having been made prior to Mr. Meissner's order.

120 * 5,000 = 600,000 BTC while 120 * 7,500 = 900,000 BTC.  According to http://cryptometer.org/bitcoin_72_month_charts.html, by July 1st 2013, ~11,079,800 BTC had been minted and as of now ~12,347,125 BTC has been minted.  This indicates that ~1,267,325 BTC has been mined between July and today.  According to Mr Meissner;s estimates of his 'losses' he and the 120 other mini-rig purchasers would have mined 50-75% of all of the BTC mined from July until today.  I think we can safely raise the BS flag on this claim.  After all, it's quite likely that more than double this listed 120 mini-rigs were purchased prior to Mr Meissner's which, by his farcical estimate, would indicate that they would have mined more BTC than actually WAS mined in the last 7 months, leaving nothing for the remainder of you to have mined at all.

This lawsuit is so full of BS that it's take a bunch of BTCtalk trolls as jury members to actually force a win for him.

Just read through his complaint, pretty damning....

http://ia700702.us.archive.org/13/items/gov.uscourts.ksd.95395/gov.uscourts.ksd.95395.2.0.pdf

The last one was in small claims court, this one is in a district court.

This is what basically needed to happen before someone would bring a case.  Because the stakes really do have to be in the millions before it makes sense to try to prosecute a case based on unprecedented legal claims and highly technical factual claims requiring expert testimony.

Hey, some lucky expert witnesses stand to make a load of bucks on this whatever way it goes.

I just hope they make sure that there are actually assets to collect from the scam operation BFL.  If they aren't total idiots, they have already absconded with them.  But look at them on this thread, Josh and the rest.  They certainly look like total idiots to me.

for those of you searching for BFL bank accounts, you may want to look under the name of the actual incorporation terms:

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081

Name:    BF Labs Inc.    Status:    Active
Filing ID:    2011-000606261    Sub Status:    Current
Type:    Profit Corporation - Domestic    Standing - Tax:    Good
Old Name:       Standing - RA:    Good
Fictitious Name:       Standing - Other:    Good
Sub Type:       
Formed in:    Wyoming    Initial Filing:    08/02/2011
Term of Duration:    Perpetual    Delayed Effective Date:    
Purpose Code:       Inactive Date:    
Principal Office:    10770 El Monte St #101
Leawood, KS 66211 USA    Mailing Address:    10770 El Monte St #101
Leawood, KS 66211 USA

You may have missed this one:

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/01/15/leawood-bitcoin-company-faces-lawsuit.html?page=all?betterTitle

"A local company considered to be one of the top producers of Bitcoin mining equipment is headed to court.

Leawood-based BF Labs Inc., better known as Butterfly Labs, has spent the past year defending itself to angry customers who preordered equipment that took months longer to ship than the company promised.

One customer, a man who lives in China and is working with local attorney Robert Flynn of The Flynn Law Firm PC, is alleging that the delay cost him millions in lost revenue and constitutes fraud.

BF Labs produces equipment that allows individuals to harvest Bitcoins.

Bitcoin is a form of digital currency created in 2009 by an anonymous Internet user who goes by the name Satoshi Nakamoto. Instead of a physical coin, each Bitcoin is a long digital string of numbers that makes it identifiable.

Nakamoto "buried" 21 million Bitcoins in a complex mathematical puzzle. They're "mined," or extracted, by solving a block of that mathematical riddle. Each time a new block is unlocked, the miner receives 25 Bitcoins for his work — currently trading for about $25,000.

The riddles were easy to solve at first and could be done using standard computer processing power. But as each new block of Bitcoins is unlocked, the riddle becomes more difficult.

Today, it takes special equipment specifically designed to do nothing but run through possible solutions to unlock Bitcoins. The faster and more advanced the equipment, the more Bitcoins each user can mine.

In March 2013, Martin Meissner preordered equipment worth more than $60,000 with the expectation that it would ship by June or July at the latest. He never received the equipment and eventually asked for a refund — which he says he also never received.

The equipment that Meissner bought initially would allow him to mine 150 Bitcoins every day, netting him roughly $150,000 a day. But as it becomes harder to unlock the Bitcoin blocks, it takes longer for the equipment to find the answer, thereby unlocking fewer Bitcoins.

That same equipment today would net Meissner only about one Bitcoin a day, the lawsuit alleges.

It's a massively diminished return on his investment, Flynn said. It also means that Meissner has missed out on months' worth of mining. Flynn calculates the loss to be closer to $5 million.

The suit, which was filed in U.S. District Court in Kansas, alleges fraud, violations of the Kansas Consumer Protection Act, negligent misrepresentation and breach of contract.

But perhaps the most serious allegation made in the case is that not only did BF Labs fail to meet the terms of its contracts, but company executives potentially used clients' money to manufacture equipment that they kept for themselves instead of shipping to customers.

"Mr. Meissner anticipates that discovery may bear out that the reason behind BF Labs' commercially unreasonable shipping practices is that BF Labs utilized the earliest Bitcoin Miners off the manufacturing line for its own Bitcoin mining endeavors, to its clients' detriment, which would be unreasonable, wanton and reckless," the petition said.

Flynn said that even if BF Labs kept each piece of equipment for one day longer, plugged it in and mined Bitcoins before shipping it out, it could net, in today's trade value, between $80,000 and $100,000 worth of Bitcoins.

"There are more than enough rumblings," Flynn said. "It's naïve to believe everything you read, not to mention everything you read on the Internet, but there are enough rumblings out there that I truly believe where there's smoke there's fire. ... Right now, we have no hard evidence, but I have every faith in the federal court system that we're going to get to the bottom of it, and I really suspect that our greatest fears — and the fears of these thousands of other miners out there — will be confirmed."

The company said those claims in particular were "irresponsible and false."

A judge in the case initially issued an entry of default, which BF Labs now seeks to have vacated.

"The focus is on customer satisfaction with BF Labs and our products," the company said in a statement through its attorney, Jim Humphrey of Polsinelli PC. "And we are disappointed in the filing of the lawsuit. We are taking this issue very seriously, and once we were notified of the lawsuit, we took steps to defend our interests, and we will continue to do so vigorously as we dispute the claims"

Nice thread!
I bought 2 products from them and both died. One within 3 hours, the other within 5 days.
Wrong PSUs, products shipped to China instead of Europe, PSUs that die with electricity outage at home, etc. Very long story...

So far no reply to any of my mails... and my anger is increasing day after day... in the meantime the bitcoin difficulty is going up at supersonic speed and I've clearly lost the time I could have slightly covered the cost of the miners.

How'd that Monarch work out for you?