Topic: Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people - page 2. (Read 5825 times)

If theres anything I've learned from the flat earth guys, or the super religious, its that you can't have a rational discussion when you can't agree on a basis. If I spend a few hours of my time finding cases of where people have been arrested or fined for self bidding on Ebay, you'll say that Ebay is not the same as your case. If I point out that auction houses do self bid, but they are closed soon after, you'll find some excuse for that. If I try to approach by using the definition of a bid as a contract, you'll disagree by another basis that we won't be able to come to an agreement on. I'll just end up frustrated, so there is no point. If you don't see wrong as wrong in the same way that 99.9% of other people do, so be it.

I've made my position clear and you've made yours. I added some feedback of my own just so you don't need to worry about Vod anymore.

I am saying that in Europe it is common.

In other news, I see SaltySpitoon went and left me a fresh red rating.

TMAN has a documented past of manipulating auctions for his own goods.  I'm not sure you should be using him as a source.

Trust is not the law. It is legal, sometimes, to bid on your own auction but usually, 99% of the times you have to inform the buyers. Bidding on your own auction is pretty scammy behavior in my opinion.

That guy seems to be an expert of auctions...
The author of that site, quoted from his site:

No. I am saying that not all auctions are forced sale auctions.



I don't think it was deceptive. It certainly wasn't meant as deceptive. Again, it is common practice in my country (Finland).


You ignored the "almost all state law says" part. Almost all. Not all. Also it's just USA. Different auction standards exist. It's common in Europe, as TMAN has said earlier too, that disclosing such intention to bid doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed.

It's not cherry-picked. You can go search articles about auctioneer bidding, you won't find many.. You'll see the one I found was the first one in google results.

You didn't disclose your intention to bid, so even your cherry picked source doesn't actually support your position.

A wordpress link doesn't mitigate the pages of legal documents that say you cant. So you are saying auctions are entirely pointless? I can immediately invalidate any auction that I might ever take part in by bidding a bazillion dollars on anything that I decide I don't want to sell, and the millions of breach of contract lawsuits against auction violators are just because they didn't know this magic rule? You found the loophole that made auctions entirely unenforceable after 3,000 years of history, congrats I suppose.
I can find you a bunch of links about why its our natural right as competitive animals to murder each other, and probably quite a few people that agree, but the law seems to disagree.

We don't even need to discuss law here for that matter. Lets say I concede and say you are right. Even if its legally acceptable, you don't think you are worthy of negative feedback for deceptive practices? Someone who might consider entering an auction you run shouldn't have the information that you don't honor your auctions, and they are wasting their time? I completely agree that its worthy of negative feedback. Vod was right, no one is out to get you, look at your own practices objectively and decide whether you'd feel wronged if it happened to you.

Ebay standards != all auction standards. Ebay doesn't enable sellers to bid on their items. Some auction standards do.


What hole am I in? People only seem to talk about this auction, even though it has nothing to do with Vod's abuse. He blackmailed/threatened me (basically "I will red-rate you if you don't remove your rating") and then red-rated when I didn't do as he wanted. That is the reason for his red rating towards me. Not any auction.

Btw, again, this Vod abuse case is NOT RELATED to any auction; read what happened.

Try to bid on your own eBay auction and let me know how that works out for you.

First rule when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.  Please consider this line of thought.

The text I linked below argues that yes, you can bid on your own item even in the USA auctions.

The sold item/property/whatever is set in the auction contract. That contract can be won by anyone. When the item is set to be auctioned, it is no-ones at that point, but the auction contracts'. Again, being the owner of the item doesn't increase or decrease ones ability to also act as a bidder. It's a form of reserve price, if you want to think about it that way.


Yes, yes you actually can. Auctions are not always "penny auctions" or "forced sale" auctions. Auctions are not always to get rid of the item at any price. I found this text when Googling about this: https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/

Vod blackmailing me and then red-rating me when I don't remove my rating, that's not what I should be silent about or am wrong about. The consensus seems to be on my side about this, as should be. The only question here still is that auction -- which is btw unrelated to the Vod's unjust rating. (It's just the only tool Vod could find against me, as he was also on my side that it's not untrustworthy to self-bid, right on the same day his "opinion" changed due to certain events unrelated to the auction.)


I did say that, many times. I should've done all that. Yet what I did was not scamming or dishonest in any way.


It is legitimate. People can have different opinions, but it is legitimate nonetheless. I understand that many (at first) see it as not, as people are not really familiar with auction standards, but it truly is not scamming or dishonesty in any way. It's a common practice in Finland and around Europe, at least. It sounds wrong, but when thinking more about it, it's really not. At worst, it's inconvenient and I agree with that -- hence defining auctions more carefully since that.

Again, you can't bid on your own item. A bid is a legally binding contract, and you can't enter a contract with yourself. If user A bids $10 on something, that bid means that they have entered a contract to pay $10 for the item, on the condition that a new contract (bid) doesn't outbid them. If the owner then bids $15, that bid isn't valid because the owner cannot enter a contract to pay oneself, so the current bid would still be $10 from user A.

If you are arguing that Shill bidding implies requires that you would have needed to placed a bid from an account named Anduck1, lets for the sake of argument that you are right and its not illegal. It is however still a void bid, and your offense is not honoring an auction, rather than trying to inflate the price.

If I'm selling a car worth $20,000 and the bid only gets up to $10,000. I can't just yell, I bid 1 billion dollars! To save me from having to sell the car.

No, it wouldn't.  You're confusing trust and DT.  You just want to harm Vod for his use of the trust system.  The proper punishment for that would be removal from DT.  Adding you to DT is fighting fire with fire, and would not only be the incorrect way to handle it, as Vod isn't like to scam according to you, which you say is the reason for DT; but it would also reward you for doing the wrong thing, which is wanting to punish Vod's trust rating for his judgement in leaving ratings.  I've alluded to you being a hypocrite in this sense, as you've left owlcatz trust and he has misused the trust system to try and make me appear to be a scammer.  So why wouldn't owlcatz get the same negative from you that you want to appear on Vod?  It's because you are after a personal vendetta, nothing more.  You have to view things from the perspective of the forum, not from the perspective of yourself.  You also need to learn the difference between trust ratings, and being on default trust.

This has been discussed across multiple threads multiple times over the last several months, and unfortunately Anduck flat out refuses to even consider that he may be in the wrong here, despite overwhelming consensus against him. I'm not sure there is any point continuing this line of discussion.

Honestly Anduck, although the forum doesn't agree with your shill bidding, all you had to say was "You're right, I should have just set a reserve price or started the auction at a higher price. It won't happen again." and a lot of people would have been on your side considering your otherwise excellent trust history. Your ongoing arguing that somehow paying yourself to win your own auction is legitimate is making you appear less trustworthy the longer it continues.

Talking about an auctioneer who owns or doesn't own the auctioned item. Legitimately purchasing it from the auction for themselves. The auctioneer is just the technical operator of the auction and has no say in how the auction rolls. Therefore he's on the same level with other bidders, he has no decreased or increased position to act as a bidder too.

The word "shill" itself refers to something being done in hidden. Nothing was done in hidden in my auction. There was no attempts to falsify bidding activity, which is what shill bidding is.

Also:



Also:
Here's something related to this: https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/can-the-seller-bid-at-auction/


The default in U.S. law (if that interests someone) is that all auctions are with reserve. More about this earlier in this thread.

Are you talking about an auctioneer that doesn't own an item legitimately purchasing it from an auction for themselves? You are the seller, you bid on your own item. Its shill bidding.

Shill bidding is bidding on the auction by using other people or accounts to drive the price up. Shill bidding is not the same as auctioneer bidding on the item. Ebay only talks about shill bidding, not self-bidding as self-bidding is not even possible on their platform. Shill bidding is a crime, yes, but self-bidding is not. Otherwise many auction houses in Europe would operate illegally.

Hope the difference between auctioneer bid and shill bid is now clarified. They're totally different things. First one is a type of concealed reserve price while the latter is dishonest activity to fake price up.

When you place a bid, you are entering a legal contract to purchase an item at the price you have offered, . You can't enter a contract with yourself, so bids by yourself are void. It was a crime punished by execution in Rome (same as fractional reserve banking  ) Ebay is a good source for information regarding auction fraud actually. Bidding on your own auctions is called shill bidding, and is a felony in the US, and Europe.

Of course, until there is a court case that proves me otherwise, I'd say that auctions done informally in a thread on a forum are honor bound at best. I doubt someone here could successfully press charges against someone for shill bidding, however my point is that its not something you can just brush off as a no big deal type of thing.

Thank you for a good post. Appreciated.


What's weird about "If DT exists, I should be on it. If it doesn't, that's even better."? I can't choose if DT exists or not. If it exists, I should be on it. If it doesn't, I think it would be better for everybody. As it does exist now, I could maybe do something to make it better by being on it myself.

As said in earlier posts, I would want Vod to go back to "let's resolve this personal issue" mindset. He had that when he thought that I were on DT as well. I wouldn't care about my trust score very much, but I know it does affect my trading activity in here. It's just how it is, sadly. Not everyone can go and see the ratings.. Many (often new people) just dismiss users without deep green trust score, for certain things.


It isn't right now, but that's what it should be and was made for.


What you described is my option #1. It's just one case, not worth enough to override good deeds of Vod. Removing him for one rating would be bad, yes.

This case is actually quite complex (at least to me even though I lived it.) It escalated way beyond what it should have. Vod blocked me and refuses all direct communications. I provoked him a bit by telling him that I don't necessarily see him as trustworthy.. Shouldn't have said that to him, right! Still not my fault that he abuses his position against me now. Basically his misunderstanding on top of his misunderstanding, and Vod not wanting to go back to that and understand his misunderstandings. Add a big ego and elevated position to this and you have a nice DT abuse case ready.


Would maybe make Vod think about his behavior and would maybe make him want to find a resolution, just like when he thought I was on DT. I assume this "will to seek for resolution" would happen as it happened when he thought I was on DT. Also I would obviously do what I can to portray DT as the list of people unlikely to scam, and nothing else.

Nothing was stated about any kind of any reserve. According to USA auction standards, the standard is that there is a reserve. No auction rules were broken. Possibly only inconvenience and wasted time, and I've learned to not cause such again, so I've been stating the existence of reserve or no reserve since. All in all, disclosing such possibility is not required. Auction rules simply did not state anything about reserve, hidden or disclosed or no reserve.