Topic: Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people - page 6. (Read 5825 times)

I have never, never heard about auctions who allow a person auctioning an item to bid on it in order to set a concealed reserve price.    Again, do you have examples of auction houses that allow that?  Do they allow the person to withdraw their bid if someone doesn't bid above it?  

Reserve prices are usually concealed, and that's understandable.  What's inconceivable to me is that anyone would do it like you did when there are no rules set about such things by bitcointalk, and you did not include such a rule in your auction.  Bidding on your own items is NOT standard in the auction industry.

And you know what?  People made all the valid arguments I could possibly make about this already in this thread.  You messed up and were dishonest, you got tagged for it, and now you think it's somehow the fault of DT members who wield their power as a weapon.  Ain't so.

You're correct. I said that DT members are capable of effectively "banning" people from conducting business. You said that it is untrue. You're wrong. The sentence you quoted is not talking about that -- it's merely an additional note, and yes, that is not the claim you made. The claim you made is that DT members are *not* capable of effectively "banning" people from conducting business. I disagree with that. Do I interpret this correctly, or am I failing at something here?


You're free to do what you want. However, I believe I know very well how auctions work. Auctioneer bidding on the auctioned item is perfectly fine around the world in various auctions. It's a form of concealed reserve price. But again, this thread is not about that. This thread is about DT misuse/abuse conducted by Vod. Some old auction and what you think about it has *nothing* to do with that. You can come to Finland to see auctions live, where auctioneer is sometimes bidding on the auction too. Auctioneer is simply in charge of the technical process of the auction and being in that role does not increase or decrease his/her ability to act as a bidder too. Some people, apparently in Bitcointalk it's the norm, see auctions as "seller must sell" -- that's however not a rule of any kind. The norm is, or maybe was, actually the contrary. Penny auctions and such have steered peoples understanding of auctions to be like that. Try to remember online auctions of early 2000. It used to be quite different. These days trust issues in e.g. ebay are very real. But this is all off-topic here.


Could be, but this case is actually quite clear and crisp. It's just somewhat long read, and obviously many people commenting in this thread -- or similar threads for the sake of it -- do not read half of what they're commenting about.

Vod is never even participating in Collectibles section and has nothing to with any of these things. He rated me simply because I told him I don't specifically trust him. This is how EGO works.

What particularly makes you think that I'm intellectually challenged? It's very clear and obvious how Vod is misusing his position as a DT member. His rating to me contains a proven lie. He says I've admitted to scamming. I've not admitted to scamming. By reading his posts in these threads, he's obviously understanding his own misunderstanding of my words to him, intentionally or not, as "lying". After he was corrected (ie. told how he misunderstood it illogically), his ego could not let go. He's defining "scamming" to mean something else than the consensus understands as "scamming". Are you really fine with this sort of bending?

Does it mean that anything said by anyone can always be bent to "mean" something else to someone, therefore reasoning whatever actions? This is bullshit and everyone knows it. So focus on that! It's happening here, and this thread is about that too -- it's one of the ways DT members abuse their position.

Which of course is not the claim that I made. 

You better believe I would, because you've demonstrated that you don't know how auctions work and once you've learned the hard way that bidding on your own auction with your own name isn't tolerated, the next thing to do would be to have a member with a different username do it. 

Please give some examples of auction sites/auction houses where a person can place a bid on his own auction if he thinks the price isn't high enough (or for whatever reason).

Are we both on bitcointalk here or what?  This forum is rife with abuse, potential abuse, you name it--and there are many who couldn't care less about the trust system here because as I mentioned, there are many people here who don't even check people's trust feedbacks or just ignore them.

You might have called me intellecually dishonest, but I think you're intellectually challenged based on everything you've written here.

There was no dishonesty. Can you stop being derogatory? It is absolutely not my fault that some power hungry child like Vod is allowed, by community, to misuse his position freely. You're trying to steer the narrative to paint me as the bad one. I don't know about your agenda, but you obviously have some reasons to completely ignore all proven wrongdoing by Vod. It's one of the main topics of this thread, making you ignore it is even more bizarre.

At best (for your talking point), not enough transparency and then some expectations were not met in that auction you keep grinding about. Yet no scamming or dishonesty happened. Nothing was specified about a reserve, doesn't make it dishonest to have it. What's the default: no reserve or reserve? In US auctions the latter, if that matters for you. Anyway, since that one occasion 2+ years ago, I've always mentioned which way it is. And again, this thread is not about that. This is about Vod and others abusing and misusing the DT system and ways to make DT better to avoid such abuse.

This thread is about obvious misuse and proven lies & dishonesty done by DT members, presenting a case of DT2 member abusing his position against me. There are various other cases too, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Possibly something to do with your silence regarding Vod's DT abuse/misuse. But that's not related to this thread, really. The problem is in the system, not really in specific people using in it.

Again I'm asking you: Are you going to read the material before commenting? Or will you just keep on slandering me and derailing the discussion?

As a younger me once said:


You're insisting on being dishonest to your auction bidders. Deal with consequences.

It used to, and Vod even kept it so by posting a second negative rating (when someone countered his shit rating) to remove others' ability to "neutralize" it until my profile was red for the time Vod wanted. And right now he has reduced my "trust score" from dark green to yellow or something like that -- I don't even know because Vod is on my distrust list due to his illogical & dishonest conduct of rating people.

Can you start reading the material before commenting nonsense?

Wrong thread?

Where does it say "extreme caution" on Anduck's profile?

There are exceptions to all of this, however in general, someone who joins the forum for the purpose of conducting business will also otherwise contribute to the community, but only as long as they can continue conducting business. So if something is substantially impeding their ability to conduct business, they will stop contributing otherwise to the community. Also, on its face, having the warning to trade with extreme caution is going to prevent you from trading, and as such, many people will not even attempt to continue trading. This is not the case on this forum, however many other forums ban scammers from trading and some people may have seen elsewhere that those who are "tagged" as scammers cannot continue to trade. For those that attempt to continue trading after having their warning to trade with extreme caution on their profile and marketplace posts, few are able to conduct any meaningful business.   

I'm aware of that the trust system has nothing to do with following or enforcing the law. As you can see, the US law was brought up by o_e_l_e_o and I was replying to him.

Vod "thinks" that my behavior is scammy, yes. Earlier he said he sees nothing wrong in that. How much do you trust someone whose "opinion" changes like that? His opinion suddenly changed after I told him that I don't specifically trust him. I think he thought he had earned some status in my eyes -- he hadn't but now he has.



Untrue. Read the thread. There's discussion about the possible ways to improve DT system and reduce abuse of it. Vod is a nice example of how the DT system is abused. His current rating towards me consists of a quite unwarranted claim of me scamming someone, and of proven lies where he claims I've admitted to scamming. Try to see the forest instead of one tree.

In a real auction house, completely normal. Being a technical operator of the auction process doesn't add or remove any capability to act as a bidder. Your opinions have no say in this. In any case, nobody was scammed and Vod is spreading bullshit in various ways. How about going back to on-topic and starting to digest that (the abuse done by DT members)?

Trust system doesn't enforce the law or even forum rules. Vod thinks your behavior is scammy. I appreciate Vod's warning because regardless of what the law says I wouldn't want to waste my time on auction where you can decide to cancel it at any time.

All you've done here for 19 pages is attack anyone who disagrees with you. Frankly that makes you look less trustworthy.

Irrelevant, since we are discussing a previously unannounced self bid and not a reserve price. Your practice was at best untrustworthy, and if it were a real auction house, illegal.

Read the message above.

I did not specify that the auction is without reserve. As you can see, the US law sees auctions without specific notice of no reserve as having reserve by default. You don't know much about auctions when you're claiming that deceptive actions were done by me.

Btw, how deceptive do you see Vod's proven lies and scam accusations? Faked quotes, faked attributions? Lies on top of lies? Why don't you comment any of that?

You didn't disclose the conditions of your auction in advance. That is a deceptive practice and it's great to have a warning on your trust page so that future bidders on your auctions could decide to not waste their time with you if they don't want to get cheated out of their win.

Read the quote you quoted. There's nothing unlawful or scammy in this behavior. Not providing advance notice doesn't make it unlawful or scammy. Also, for the sake of it, I'm not US citizen. Also, as I've said earlier, I will (and have since) presented clearly if there's a reserve price of any kind. This is to increase transparency, as concealed reserve price is not common here.

Btw, the same section you quoted also says:


The item was sold to the highest bidder, that being me. Second highest bidder did not win the item. Yes, I was also the auctioneer of the item. Your definition of a scam, or attempted scam, or whatever related to scamming, seems to be out of the line.

Whether or not the practice was scammy has be discussed ad nauseam already in this thread. I would refer back to my previous statement on the matter:

---

I don't remember if we got an answer to the question of whether you sold the item to the highest bidder that wasn't you at the price of their original bid. If you didn't, then they were scammed out of a fair win. Regardless, however, a scam does not have to have happened for someone to be labelled a scammer, which is commonplace across the forum.

Also, the auction was not held according to the stated rules, as you never stated your intentional to bid on your own auction.

---

The Pharmacist received negative trust from a DT member literally last week. However, he admitted he was in the wrong and made amends, and so now the red trust is no more. You flat out refuse to admit that not disclosing your intention to bid on your own auction was untrustworthy behavior (which it is in the eyes of the law, as I've outlined above).

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's irrelevant to talk about marginal cases. Of course negative trust affects the ability to conduct business, and in many cases, prevents people from conducting business. Obviously one doesn't want to trade with someone whose account page has a bright red notice saying "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!". This of course doesn't mean that *everyone* will be unable to conduct business with *everyone*. Some people see through bullshit red ratings, but for big majority it's a huge red flag and trading business is conducted elsewhere.


Alright. I don't really understand why you're highlighting that you "would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours". As you *should* know by now, regardless of the lies presented by some idiot, I've not shill-bidded. I've bidded on my own auction on my own account as a measure of concealed reserve price. This was one-time case 2-3 years ago. This is completely normal in various auctions, but not in bitcointalk auctions -- which I learned back then. Btw, I don't care about the shitty account and trust games people play here -- I'm not part of that.

Someone not too dense would maybe understand to look at other factors here. Isn't it a bit weird that someone pops up and starts red-rating after years since some event he wasn't even part of and actually commented earlier that he saw nothing wrong in the said event? Please read this thread and follow the links to find out that Vod is bullshitting and nobody gives a shit. In some other cases where Vod nor I are in, people have feared to say anything against the wrongdoer because getting red-rates is extremely easy and getting dropped from DT2 is very easy too. It's so very fragile for active members and on the other hand so damn rigid if you're on DT1 or DT2'd by people not actively around anymore.


It doesn't present to an individual as a huge mess unless you're a victim of it. Many are. Naturally you don't feel the pain, because your say actually weights, due to being in DT. You have the tools to work against potential abusers, which there are not too many, because who would go against someone with a gun? I'm with no gun, so Vod can currently freely misuse his position against me.


You agree with the proven lies he presents in his feedback?

I've not scammed anyone, I've not acted in a scammy way. But I know it's easy to think like that when you don't think about it properly. There's absolutely nothing scammy in having a concealed reserve price, presented as the bidder bidding on the auction. Auction rules are same for everyone. Vod also agreed that I did nothing scammy in there. Later he started, regardless of that, using it as a weapon against me due to other reasons. This auction event is the only thing he can find about me that can remotely trigger emotions like it does on e.g. you. Think about it and understand that self-bidding on an auction carries no scammy behavior at all.  In any case, this Vod's rating towards me is not even about that. Read the damn thread!


His rating is proven to be dishonest. Here's the said rating: "Scammed other users by bidding on his own auction. States he does not believe this is unethical. Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter."

First of all, nobody was scammed. Auction was held according to the stated rules. In my country it's perfectly normal for the auctioneer to take part in the auction too. Auctioneer is only carrying the technical process of the auction -- nothing more. He has no different position, when he's bidding, than any other bidder. And again, that auction event is only a tool used by Vod, as he has absolutely nothing else to present that would trigger emotions on people about me. Secondly, I've *not* admitted to any lying in any messages whatsoever. I've not lied. It's complete bullshit by Vod. How is that "honest" for you?



Why are you commenting things you don't know about?  Vod rated me twice and removed the other rating. Someone positively rated me which triggered Vod to reinstate the red trust score on me by sending a new red rating. Later Vod removed it as the positive rating was also removed after "discussions" with DT.

My two ratings are about two separate issues. First him calling me a scammer for no reason, and second for acting in an incredibly unresponsible, pathetic and scummy way while being on DT.

That's not true, though.  I've seen cases where people with negs from DT have no trouble whatsoever doing deals here, depending on what the feedback was for, of course.  A lot of members apparently don't even check a person's trust page before deciding whether to transact with that person--and that's how many of them get scammed, too.

In your case, I would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours before I bid on it, but otherwise I'd have no issues dealing with you because of all the other positives you've received.  Negative trust from DT members isn't the kiss of death a lot of people think it is.

It's not such a huge mess, though there are problems.  I've had to remove some negatives that I've left when evidence showed that I left them wrongly, and I suspect there will be more.  Vod's not part of that sort of issue, IMO.  His feedbacks are generally very accurate, and he has a reputation of being quite fair. 

However, I agree with his feedback on you and that what you did was extremely scammy.  There's no auction house in the world that I know of that would allow someone to place a bid on his own auction--even employing shill bidders is almost universally either frowned upon or illegal.  If you realize what you did was wrong (and I haven't been following all of your posts on this) and haven't repeated it, Vod might be kind enough to remove his neg, though I wouldn't count on it.  His rating was honest.  But you left not one, but two retaliatory negs on him and I don't expect that's going to sway his opinion in your favor.

These issues are still unsolved. DT system needs major changes. It's a huge mess and power fight around the DT right now. Please do something about it. Some measures to disincentivize abusal of DT is needed. E.g. in my case, Vod apparently continues to do what he does after misusing and lying about me, and others, via the DT system. He should not be in the DT -- then his lies would be almost completely irrelevant.

It looks like a ton of new people, especially non-English speakers, think that DT are staff/moderators. They're not entirely wrong. After all, DT members *are* capable of effectively "banning" accounts from conducting any business here.