Topic: TYGRR.* assets on GLBSE delisted. - page 12. (Read 33293 times)

Can you explain how he is a liability?   It seems like each time he mentions these "fake" assets that were going to be honored and now they will not, you mention liability.   I work in sales and deal with difficult people all the time but I still deal with them.

I can see how it's a frustrating situation, what information were you given? I thought you were given contact emails and usernames too, can these not be used to verify claim codes as well? If more than one person is using the same email address, username, and claim codes then those should be withheld until it can be cleared up, but that's no reason to hold up the rest of them.

To address another concern, if someone uses an email address, claim code, and username to verify with you, and later someone else uses the same information, then they lost control of their account somehow which makes it their problem.  

In your comunications, explain clearly that codes will only be redemable once, to the first party that uses the code, and you are not liable if somebody lost or stole a code. Say something like "any shares not redemed in 3 months will be absorbed by the company". If they do not want a cryptostock account, I suppose they could sell the code to somebody who does.

I assume Goat should have copies of his contracts, oh wait, one of them was "Test", looks like I had that one backed up in my brain If he did things right, they should have been gpg signed, so even if he brings out the copies people can still check to see they are correct.

Now Goat, here are a few simple steps to clear up this mess completely:

1 - Give Nefario a btc address and get your customers money from him.
2 - Go to cryptostocks, open up assets corresponding to the assets you had on GLBSE.
3 - Send out communication to assetholders, put up a big notice on this forum, if you have a website then put a notice there, etc, etc.
4 - Have asset holders provide you with the claim code and a cryptostocks account, transfer them the shares.
5 - Stop whining.

And the wtf just keeps piling on....

Nefario must not have given the above statement, let alone this entire situation.....a single ounce of thought....LMAO

.....talk about all-time back-fires. I think it's fair to say that you are safe Goat.

For those interested, there are now Windows Builds of Moneychanger, (a client GUI for Open Transactions)

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/moneychanger-windows-builds-out-of-date-77301


Also feel free to join #opentransactions on freenode.   We are more than happy to help people with any issues they may have.

This is nonsense for multiple reasons, among which is the simple and obvious one that you can't have contracts between unknown parties. The only valid way to treat financials in BTC is as stemming from a contract between the issuer and the exchange (which is to say, the way MPEx does it).



This.

A redeeming code I get from GLBSE does not equate a contract Goat and I have signed (digital or otherwise). Your recommendation doesn't seem to be helping with the problem.


GLBSE's obligation of handling the shares I own. The claim code I got doesn't have identical qualities with the representation of shares I owned through GLBSE. Even the potential existence and nature of these codes were unknown prior to this event, probably even by GLBSE.

Never mind that I was exposed to a situation that I had no way of predicting. It is GLBSE's obligation to keep me out of needless trouble. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why these assets were de-listed without prior notice to me. You can argue that the de-listing is Goat's fault, but the fact that I'm wasting time here instead of productive work and the risk that I won't be able to redeem my shares is entirely GLBSE's doing.

Thaks Joel, you seem to have made good arguments there for putting each issuer on a separate server-instance, as doing so would allow simply zipping the entire server-instance and sending it to the issuer or having the issuer download it.

They could then simply give it to another hosting company to fire it back up for them so they can themselves take care of migrating its contents over to a new server-contract whose private keys will not be accessible/known to the previous hoster.

-MarkM-

So GLBSE's obligation is to handle the sole account of who owns what, and they can simply stop handling that accounting any time they want?

Did GLBSE have an obligation to issue the claim codes at all? If not, then you're essentially arguing that GLBSE can abandon its customers (asset holders) any time it wants. If so, then they surely can't satisfy that obligation with a claim scheme that's fundamentally broken.

Since that consumes the code, why is that not accurately described as "redeeming"?

The asset holders are anonymous and have to self-identify to get their assets? Nobody has yet proposed any scheme for using the claim codes that works.

I agree that the shares were never in the possession of GLBSE.

Right, but that's only because the NYSE or the NASDAQ don't have any continuing obligation to maintain an accounting of who owns what shares. GLBSE isn't comparable in this regard. Each transaction of a share on GLBSE obligated GLBSE to maintain that ownership record, an obligation to the buyer that I don't think GLBSE can simply abandon. Anonymous exchanges can't work that way.

Your shares still exist, you simply have no way to prove they're yours to the issuer. That's cold comfort. The claim codes don't work for reasons I've already explained.

Please, explain the redemption scheme that can be used with these codes. I can't figure out any possible scheme. How long does he wait to make sure he doesn't get two claims with the same code? What does he do if he does get two claims? What does he do if someone accuses him of scamming when they present a code that isn't on his list?

And please explain where GLBSE's agreement with either its buyers or its asset owners permitted it to unilaterally decide how the accounting will be perpetuated when a stock is delisted.

Also, the suddenness of the delisting appears to be a major "screw you" to GLBSE's customers. I don't know of any reason such a drastic measure was needed. Trading could have been suspended, all pending orders deleted, a good faith effort made to work out a plan (buyback, redemption, whatever) with Goat, and perhaps trading resumed for a limited period of time (with a warning click through or some such) for people who didn't want to go through a redemption process and risk their anonymity. GLBSE may have good reason not to work with Goat, but they should have put their other customers' interest ahead of that.

The agreement already is between the issuer and the asset holder and glbse doesnt own anything. The codes simply tell goat which amount of shares belongs to which owner and if he really wanted to he could simply setup a new account at another exchange and issue people shares as they redeem the codes.

You seriously don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?

You would assume wrong.

GLBSE's obligation to companies listed with his exchange, is to handle the accounting of who has what. TYGRR issues, are no longer listed with his exchange, and his exchange no longer handles that accounting

The claim codes aren't for "redeeming", they are so Goat can match up which shares belong to which asset-holder.

Since GLBSE operates with anonymous asset-holders, the claim codes represent the owner of the asset shares. It is up to the asset-holder, to self-identify themselves to Goat, so Goat knows who owns which shares.

The asset shares, were always associated with Goat's issues. They never belonged to, nor were in the possession of, GLBSE. All GLBSE did, was facilitate the trading of other people's shares, and handle the accounting work for the listed issue. Any obligations towards the shares you owned, are between you and the asset-issuer, via the contract they posted.

All of the companies that trade via the NYSE, don't give their shares to the NYSE, and the NYSE doesn't handle the shares themselves. They just handle the accounting and match buy and sell orders, and facilitate the transaction between the 2 third parties that want to exchange the shares between each other.

At no time, does the NYSE keep the shares in their possession. The listed companies get the lists of transactions, showing which shares were traded, and between who. (although, it is typically brokers in this case)

When a company delists from the NYSE, either voluntary, or through eviction, you may or may not get any warning about it. The company is supplied records showing the last state of trading at the time of the delisting, and the NYSE is no longer involved. The companies would either deal with their shareholders directly, or re-list on another exchange, like the NASDAQ. Companies moving from one exchange to another, or delisting to go private, is not necessarily common, but it isn't unusual either.

Being delisted from the GLBSE, just means that the TYGRR issues, are no longer traded through the GLBSE. That's it. It doesn't mean that you've been robbed of your shares, or that Nefario kept them, which he hasn't. Your shares still exist, as they always have, as that is between you and the company/issuer. The only thing that has changed, is it is not as convenient to trade them now as they used to be, since now, essentially, you're dealing with a private company/issue.

-- Smoov

Both parties agreed that GLBSE would control who owned the shares. GLBSE gave them to Goat. They're not bearer bonds, they're not "your shares" just because you have a claim code issued by GLBSE. GLBSE has no authority to issue its customers claim codes that Goat must redeem. Goat never agreed to effectively a bearer bond and he certainly never agreed (nor would have under any circumstances) to a scheme where GLBSE issues its customers claim codes that Goat must honor.

I would assume GLBSE's obligation to secure its customers assets and transfer control of them only as agreed rather than giving them to the issuer without authorization from either party.

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.
Of course. But what about GLBSE's obligations to me? I and others will definitely lose time AND money merely because of how this decision is carried out.