Topic: Venezuela - page 9. (Read 2129 times)

Today looking once again heard the news that all the consuls of the United States hastily began to collect their belongings and leave Venezuela.
The situation is quite tense and I hope the fighting will not come. People have always been in conflict and it is mainly their financial situation that is to blame. I hope that everything is solved peacefully and clashes will suffer as less as possible people.

Well, as usual, if you start an armed conflict I think everyone would blame Russia))) It's a classic USA..

I don't think it is anything to do with democracy. The Chinese have lent large sums of money to the Venezuelan government, and they are secured on assets. This is a known ploy of the Chines, and when the government can't repay, the Chinese claim the assets. There is no way that the US wants China to own land to set up a military base in Venezuela.

Another problem is the quality of oil in Venezuela, It is very heavy, and most of it is processed in the US.

Trump may have slipped up by supporting the interim president.

I believe the United States will eventually try to take control over Venezuela because of their vast oil reserves.  I also know the media in America is trying to use Venezuela as an excuse to declare capitalism is better than socialism. 

They don't need a classic liberal system at this moment. Political ideology is the least of their concerns. Their concern is on getting food on the table, restoring law and order, getting the economy going. There's a time and place for liberalism, it isn't when there's anarchy.

Agreed! Is anyone in Venezuela working toward that?

I didn't mean otherwise. A free market economy is one of the main wishes for government change (ie. a non socialist gov). The second wish is to stop criminality. When Chavez was in power, the constitution was replaced and the balance of powers skewed (even more) towards the executive. Under the strongman, things more or less worked, but after his death the "appointed successor" (Maduro) destroyed the economy. Before Chávez things weren't perfect either (which is how they came to power in the first place, out of voters anger of the previous system); but in the end they replaced a corrupt "social-democrat" system by a hyper-corrupt "socialist" system. They still think they can command the economy, like the former socialist bloc under the Soviet Union, a mistake that even the Chinese learned to fix, more or less...

What Venezuela has never seen, is a classic liberal system. I'm sure something along those lines would cure things quickly. What Venezuela has always had in its history, is an omnipotent State with powers heavily concentrated in the executive. Of course the opposition is mostly composed by social democrats (not unlike those from the past) which is why the people have lost hope many times (provoking mass exodus), and their inadequate reaction (or lack of action) against socialism.

For instance: in the last 20 years, only a single economist has been in the government cabinet, during the years 2002 and 2003. This person left because he opposed someone's else proposed idea to "control the foreign currency exchange" by pegging the bolivar to the US dollar. As any half decent economist would, he warned then president Chavez against the dangers of what ultimately led the country to this current state. Of course the socialists had their way back then (because "the rich are evil, and the poor want redemption...") and he was thrown away. A decade later, the poor are poorer, and sure there are less rich, but those few rich got richer thanks to the system corruption. For example: Who gets to import the goods the State distributes to the poor? Who gets to transport the goods from abroad? Obviously those few who bribe their way in...

You see Maduro increasing the minimal wage, yet to pay those wages he orders the central bank to "create" money (not even blockchain based money, or paper for that matter), provoking the out of control inflation that has, in effect, reduced the average salary from 250 USD a month in 2008 to 8 right now. What is the point of having such a ridiculous minimal wage? Just get rid of it entirely! Let the individuals choose their wages and working conditions with their employers, a gov should at most ensure any valid contract privately signed between parties is respected by both. But no, Venezuela has a "workers law" with such conditions no business would want to hire anyone, and if they absolutely must, it would be the minimal possible because not only they are very expensive, but almost impossible to "legally" lay off later. End result: Less employment. Who suffers most? The poor, not the rich.

Anything the politicians try to control, ends producing the opposite effect. Fixate renting prices? Make it real hard to evict people? Nobody rents homes anymore. Who suffers? The poor that could barely afford to pay rent, or those who could buy the house? But they fixated the prices in the name of the poor, and they made it almost impossible for the owners to evict non/low paying people to "protect them".

I could go on and on, why all those "socialist" ideas sound so pretty in paper, but end producing the exact opposite effect in the end. Of course we know, we are living it...

Every socialist system has this level of incompetency. It's not the leaders at fault. It's the system, time and time again.

This situation has gone far beyond anything that can be viewed in simple political "us vs them" or "capitalist vs socialist" rhetoric. Few socialist nations have every shown this level of incompetence.

It shows the lack of ability of the current leaders in running a country. Unfortunately, in a controlled economy that does mean mass starvation.

I hope there are ways people in the USA can help and I hope that this situation resolves itself.

Yes, I am. Guaidó has the backing of the national assembly, the legislative branch that people voted for with opposition winning by landslide in Dec 2015. That very December, days before the term of the former assembly ended, they hastily (and illegally) put pro-maduro tugs in the judiciary branch, and then proceeded to declare the national assembly illegal, and have ruled the country by executive powers since then.

Next they rigged "elections" for a "national constituent assembly" in 2017, That day vote turn around was minimal, with most voting centers empty the whole day, yet, they declared more than 8 million voted in favor. This is a number higher not only to what Maduro supposedly got in the 2013 presidential elections, but even more than the super charismatic Chávez got in 2012 (who died in 2013).

Once installed, this "National Constituent Assembly" declared itself "above the constitution and any rule of law", and because to them there was no National Assembly took legislative powers, which is essentially anything Maduro and his group wants. So they are in fact a de facto goverment, not de jure.

In 2018 they did presidential elections, not in December as it has always traditionally been, but much earlier in may 2018. Like the previous fiasco, almost nobody showed to vote that day and, of course, he "won" by "landslide" (with 5 million according to them).

Do note the economy starting crashing the day Maduro got into power, since 2013, and living conditions have only got worse ever since. By 2018 2~4million people had already left the country (i forgot to mention this is formerly a 30million people country).

These events were not recognized by the national assembly (that Maduro doesn't recognize) and they have all this years been declaring anything done by the executive invalid, and the executive and its puppet the judiciary appointed by them directly have declared anything done by the national assembly invalid. this brings us to 2019, the last accepted by both term would technically end in January the 10th, afterwards there is no president (the vice-president is appointed by the president and ends term at the same moment).

The constitution states that, in case of absence of the executive, the president of the National Assembly becomes president interim, this is what just happened January 23th, and the reason many countries are acknowledging him as legitimate President of Venezuela.

Of course we know the United States and others have interests here, but considering how hellish the situation has been, i think they would be welcome. The economy needs a 180° turn desperately, it is pointless to give a socialist rhetoric and have the worst conditions the country has seen in a century. A change of government, to pro free market would net us a win/win situation. Continuing this agony everyone loses.

By the way, following the appointment of Juan Guaidó as President Interim by the National Assembly, he has only requested humanitarian aid to the United States. As you probably know, the US Gov has officially acknowledged Guaidó's authority. Maduro in anger, yesterday ordered everyone in the US Embassy of Caracas to leave the country by Sunday. The Trump administration refuses to move everyone out, but has already ordered non-essential personnel to leave. This incident was solely caused by Mr. Maduro and his goons.

At the same time, since Jan 22 there have been protests and demonstrations, similar to 2017 with already 36+ people killed and hundreds detained by the national guard, national police or the urban militias known as "colectivos". There have been clashes, barricades, some looting, its been chaotic especially at night in different cities. Its not widespread chaos at this moment, but with the looming crisis with the United States, people are naturally worried.

I personally expect the Maduro regime to fall into pieces very soon, his support is more show than reality, people are angry and tired, even former Chavez supporters. I think most everyone in Venezuela would welcome a government change, regardless, if only to end this disastrous economy where people are expected to survive with the equivalent of 8 USD a month that becomes 4 USD by the end of the month...


There is not much to say about Petro, except that so far its been a giant lie (and some say State scam). It is (in its latest incarnation, the 4thish) supposedly a Dash clone, modified extensively. The (de facto) gov. has kept all nodes and mining to themselves, and don't release any wallets. All they offer is an online wallet in a single server. They are also dictating the exchange rates, just like they have done to the bolivar. The backing of "a barrel of oil" for each Petro is a promise this government is very unlikely to ever fulfill.

Unfortunately the problems are not just economic, the criminality is way out of control. A new government has this task to tackle as well. But your idea isn't far fetched, you might just want to wait some more time. Venezuela has a lot of tropical sea (beaches and islands), mountains, plains, jungle and even a sand desert, with HUGE tourism potential. Oil in the Orinoco belt is mostly super heavy that needs expensive refining, that's were most foreign companies have their drilling rigs.

I don't see the issue with regime change. The problem is trying to force democracy on poor countries. Let the economy develop and democracy be protested for by the middle class.

Regime change has worked in Panama, Chile, South Korea, Kuwait just to name a few. They are all liberal democracies now, and the richest countries in their regions.

I see nothing but benefits for the United States to change their regime. The number of refugees will decrease. The economy will grow. They will export oil cheaply.

Their socialist system is a massive failure. It has caused pain and suffering for many. Regime change is a cheap investment with massive returns.

It's an interesting situation as usual the US wants Regime Change
The US want to reduce the influence of China and Russia in the Latin American Sphere and the easiest and most valuable target to them is Venezuela.
It is also why they keep the sanctions and economic restrictions on them, they want another Libya with a parallel government to destroy Maduro which is equivalent to what they did to Gaddafi.

Then using the sanctioned money they have to fund Guaidó's position, which is where the 20 million they promised is coming from if their regime change is successful.

On Maduro's side given the precedent the US has of royally messing things up and their track record in Latin America and the Middle East.
Not that I am really am in favor of either government
Simply put I just want those people to have a break, that said as Vit pointed out if things go South the rats will leave the ship and they will put a new figurehead out.



20 million for regime change aid
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article225010645.html
Embassy change ignored
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/the-latest-venezuelas-guaido-expresses-gratitude-to-trump/2019/01/23/c5d993d4-1f6b-11e9-a759-2b8541bbbe20_story.html?utm_term=.19c0c40cb426

It has been predicted that there may be 8 million refugees may leave Venezuela if the government falls. Some of these people will go throughout Central America and some will try to reach the United States.

To put this in perspective, the Syria civil war has produced appropriately 5 million refugees throughout Europe, which has resulted in massive problems there.

The situation in Venezuela is one more reason why we need to build a wall along the US southern border in places it can easily be crossed.

Interesting... so what your saying is corrupt people within the US government put Socialists in power as controlled opposition in order to collapse and control nations?

Imagine if Alexandria Ocasio Cortez woke up tomorrow, called herself president and was recognized as the true president by other countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCJLL6SHst8&feature=youtu.be
Here is a detailed analysis of what has happened in Venezuela.  Its important to understand the history of Venezuela, US-backed coups, and the dishonesty in the way the mainstream media reports these situations.

We're based in Argentina, and the amount of Venezuelans coming to our country is huge. Its a massive exodus from Venezuela to other places.

We all feel very sad about what's going on and refugees from Venezuela just leave so they can send money to the elder that are staying in their country with almost no basic needs at all (food, water, etc.)

The government is very big in Venezuela. It is the largest employer directly and indirectly. The Chavez government knew how to use Petroleo's resources, they have created in the population an extreme need of government as responsible for everything in the life of a citizen.

For this reason, the protests are so significant. It is not a dispute between leaders as some belief. It is not the same as it is in Middle East and Africa.

People got tired of the government. They find no hope other than complete change.

Guaidó emerged in this situation. He gained support by fighting the government, especially in his home state. But there are other leaders who are much better known than he is, but they are in prison or have left the country. What will actually happen when Maduro falls, will be the division of the opposition and also of the situation. Many new candidates will emerge. Today it seems like they are few because either you are totally against the government or totally in favor.

And that is why no major armed conflict will occur. The rats will quickly leave the ship, each one will try to maintain some power with the fall of this government. Diosdado and Néstor will probably try to support/create another leader, and thus keep the businesses they own.

I am sure he is than socialism.

Maduro and the situation in Venezuela is a reason why Americans should be terrified of the proposals of AOC, Bernie Sanders, and other left wing extremists that have taken over the mainstream of the Democratic party.

Venezuela messed up when they built their country on top of our oil.  Never underestimate the evil of the United States and how far they will go to assert their will.  We've ran our course in Syria (thanks to Russia) so now its time to make another Syria.   We are still probably a few decades away from a time where China could counter US aggression by placing military presence and stabilizing Venezuela. 

I saw something about Mexico, Cuba, Russia, and some others continuing to support Maduro while the US and many others are recognizing Guaidó.
That sounds like something that could turn into a sort of proxy war but if the US does anything I doubt any others would do anything about it. This is outside of Russia's sphere of influence unlike Syria..

Their are a lot of Venezuelans in crypto. With their run away inflation fiat currency I don't blame them and hope that Crypto can truly help them the way it is supposed to help those in such positions.

Sadly a lot of the Venezuelens in Crypto I have come across were on Cryptopia. The exchange that was just hacked. Many spanish speakers there.
Another crypto project I was close with for a while was Rare Pepe on Counterparty and their was a Venezuelan aspect to that as well.
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/03/27/venezuelans-using-rare-pepes-bitcoin-currency/
https://dailycaller.com/2017/03/23/venezuelan-currency-slowly-getting-replaced-by-pepe-memes/

The government of Venezuela even created their own cryptocurrency. I am not up to speed on it since when I heard about it it just sounded like a fiat currency on a blockchain which is outside of my interest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_(cryptocurrency)
I should probably get myself up to speed on the petro cryptocurrency and the rest of the Venezuela situation and history leading up to this situation.
I have only really been following the breaking news for the last day or so and not yet even today's news since last night.

The people of Venezuela have been in a terrible state for quite a while now so I hope that something there changes for the better.
I'm not sure about the Maduro guy keeping power through what some say was an illegitimate election, I'm not well aware of all of the aspects but he has obviously been doing a piss-poor job.

Guaidó said that one of the first things he wanted to do as president was to hold a new fair election I think. That sounds reasonable.
I joked to my GF last night that if Venezuela gets straightened out after this we should go there for oilfield work for me and marina work for her

I'm sure the folks from Venezuela are tired of the corruption plaguing their country, and are hopeful Guaidó will restore some order.  I agree Guaidó is probably a CIA plant, but if he survives long enough to get the country through an honest election then I don't care.  The Venezuelans are wonderful people and wish them the best.

What I don't want to see is Guaidó becoming the next dictator (visions of South Vietnam and Ngô Đình Diệm's clusterfuck.)  I really don't believe US military intervention is a practical approach.  I doubt the Venezuelan people want our military in their country, and would rather resolve their problems on their own.