I am NOT one of them b/c I believe in government as the will of the people.
So do the libertarians.
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 29011. (Read 26609669 times)
March 04, 2014, 03:39:58 PM
So do the libertarians.
March 04, 2014, 03:36:50 PM
This guy showed his hand weeks ago.
I have stated my position several times, but for those who did not see it:
* Cryptocoins are a great invention, and I wish that they succeed in their original goal -- a method of payment through the internet, especially across national borders, that is safe, cheap, convenient, fast, etc. I wish that, and I would love to use them if and when I think that they are better for me than credit cards or other existing means. I wish that, but I do not think that the chances are good. (One shoudl never confuse "desire" with "expectation".)
* I am not a libertarian. I believe that governments are useful and necessary, and we should fight to democratize and improve them rather than abolish them. I see the libertarians' idea of getting rid of governments as sheer lunacy. (For one thing, if you don't have your own strong democratic government, other people will gladly and forcibly lend you theirs.) And I see their hope that bitcoin will let them build their utopia outside the reach of governments as lunacy squared.
* Adults have the right to do whatever they want with their money (within limits of law and ethics, of course), including investing it in whatever they like, gambling it, or even throwing it away.
* In particular, I do not care care if someone buys a lottery ticket when he is fully aware of the odds, or trades it with some fellow gambler who is equally aware of them.
* However, if I see someone buying a lottery ticket because he thinks it is a good investment, I feel this Darwinian duty (magnified by professional habit) to inform that fellow primate about the odds, expected value, and all that. If the guy does not believe me, then, shrug, that is his problem. And, of course, I consider myself excused of that duty if I think that the guy may steal my bananas, or if he snarled some unfriendly noises at me.
* Finally, when someone tries to convince others to buy lottery tickets, by telling them that it is a good investment, when his motive is actually to make a profit out of their "investment" -- then that guy is a scammer, and should go to jail.
I agree with a large number of your points and subpoints however, I do NOT understand why bitcoin and/or some other crypto-currencies cannot fit within your world view. In other words, neither bitcoin nor other crypto-currencies need to be incompatible with your world view. We can still have government and crypto-currencies. I recognize that there are a lot of libertarians in the crypto-currency space; however, I am NOT one of them b/c I believe in government as the will of the people... I also believe that crypto currencies can facilitate the will of the people.. and likely facilitate government that follows the will of the people.
The main thing governments do with their money, is increasing the supply (newspeak regulating, keep prices stable). If he thinks that government needs to have this power, bitcoin is at odds.
March 04, 2014, 03:36:33 PM
big sellout on bitcoinbuilder!
March 04, 2014, 03:36:07 PM
Are you telling me that one of the biggest exchanges losing their customers money didn't cause a reversal from a downtrend that was caused by the loss of demand in China? How can this be? :O This is impossible!
Sounds like you missed the rally and hope to get another crack. GTFO. The correction to $530 was because of China. Gox took us down to $400. These things can overlap.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I'm angry because there won't be any volatility any longer in the crypto scene to make money at the expense of fools. So I just invented this so called "demand in China" and how it's loss caused a boring 2 month long dead cat bounce.
But I'll try to correct my ways and listen to the TA wizards here who have skillz of drawing linez.
It was game over for bitcoin in China when it was announced that there is no future for legal business supported by bitcoin. It ment that no serious investors who want to keep solid relations with the government won't touch bitcoin. The market that is left is basically walking on a thin line, only waiting for getting shut down and possibly prosecuted. Only thing that created the long dead cat bounce was denial, desperation and stupidity. If you have been looking at the charts then you know that overall demand has constantly been dropping, with only thing holding the price up is that there aren't many people who are willing to sell cheap. But this in turn is causing a decrease in volume and only way to stimulate the market is lowering the price little by litle...this will reach a critical point when the "will of the hodlers" will break and there will be a nice fall.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about this anymore, I have found that sarcasm is more suitable for this place. I'm tired of the "line drawers" calling for new and new bottoms for these past 2 months. You do whatever you wish and believe whatever you believe.
If you have such beliefs, then why are you hanging around here? Why dont you just sell your bitcoins and leave? Are you here to save the rest of us from ourselves from bitcoin from what? Or are you still investing in the meantime?
Because it's profitable to earn money at the expense of people who don't know any better.
OK>>>>> that is fair.. I agree that you do NOT have to believe in the long term success of bitcoin in order to profit from its volatility and even from its trend... that is if you can predict correctly in order to turn a profit.
The killer app for Bitcoin in China is that it is a loophole to evade capital controls. This hasn't changed.
With the current restrictions, it does not seem to be very useful at that.
If a Chinese citizen buys bitcoin at Huobi with Yuan, sends the bitcoins over to Bitstamp, and exchanges then for dollars there, the end result (from PBoC's point of view) seems to be very different from him exchanging the Yuan for dollars at some international bank, or taking the Yuan to the US and changing them there.
In the first case, his yuan stay in China, and the dollars he gets come from the pockets of non-Chinese speculators. In the second case, the Yuan end up in non-Chinese hands, and can be exploited to manipulate Chinese inflation etc.. That, in my uderstanding, is why the PBoC does not seem to care anymore about bitcoin trading in the Chinese exchanges.
Also, I thought that the Chinese did NOT care so much about bitcoin is b/c in essence they are trying to find investment vehicles outside of the dollar... and in that sense, the chinese have an interest in the success and stability of bitcoin as a storage of value, outside of the dollar.
March 04, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
And you really believe that bitcoin is the best legal loophole in China to evade capital controls? Or even just a good way? Or that bitcoin is the most secure way to hedge against inflation? That a business owner actually buys bitcoins while saying "ha! now my wealth is safe in this stable and secure currency!".
They're evading capital control by moving wealth out of the country. Why, as you suggest, would they be holding bitcoin at the endpoint?
They wouldn't necessarily, but mobile capital has utility that the relatively immobile yuan doesn't. They possibly might hold BTC as an inflation hedge as I mentioned, but volatility obviously limits the appeal.
Bitcoin is easier, safer, and less time-consuming than booking a trip to Macau and buying poker chips just to cash them out in a different currency. Going through all the trouble of creating a shell company can't be a better loophole either unless you are dealing with substantial sums.
March 04, 2014, 03:28:50 PM
This guy showed his hand weeks ago.
I have stated my position several times, but for those who did not see it:
* Cryptocoins are a great invention, and I wish that they succeed in their original goal -- a method of payment through the internet, especially across national borders, that is safe, cheap, convenient, fast, etc. I wish that, and I would love to use them if and when I think that they are better for me than credit cards or other existing means. I wish that, but I do not think that the chances are good. (One shoudl never confuse "desire" with "expectation".)
* I am not a libertarian. I believe that governments are useful and necessary, and we should fight to democratize and improve them rather than abolish them. I see the libertarians' idea of getting rid of governments as sheer lunacy. (For one thing, if you don't have your own strong democratic government, other people will gladly and forcibly lend you theirs.) And I see their hope that bitcoin will let them build their utopia outside the reach of governments as lunacy squared.
* Adults have the right to do whatever they want with their money (within limits of law and ethics, of course), including investing it in whatever they like, gambling it, or even throwing it away.
* In particular, I do not care care if someone buys a lottery ticket when he is fully aware of the odds, or trades it with some fellow gambler who is equally aware of them.
* However, if I see someone buying a lottery ticket because he thinks it is a good investment, I feel this Darwinian duty (magnified by professional habit) to inform that fellow primate about the odds, expected value, and all that. If the guy does not believe me, then, shrug, that is his problem. And, of course, I consider myself excused of that duty if I think that the guy may steal my bananas, or if he snarled some unfriendly noises at me.
* Finally, when someone tries to convince others to buy lottery tickets, by telling them that it is a good investment, when his motive is actually to make a profit out of their "investment" -- then that guy is a scammer, and should go to jail.
I agree with a large number of your points and subpoints however, I do NOT understand why bitcoin and/or some other crypto-currencies cannot fit within your world view. In other words, neither bitcoin nor other crypto-currencies need to be incompatible with your world view. We can still have government and crypto-currencies. I recognize that there are a lot of libertarians in the crypto-currency space; however, I am NOT one of them b/c I believe in government as the will of the people... I also believe that crypto currencies can facilitate the will of the people.. and likely facilitate government that follows the will of the people.
March 04, 2014, 03:26:13 PM
[...]
Here in Brazil we have clandestine (illegal) lotteries and cassinos, and an official lottery that is run by a state-licensed private company. Some slice of the profits go to the state, to make it seem morally acceptable. They run ads encouraging people to play; so, yes, I think they should go to jail.
Here in Brazil we have clandestine (illegal) lotteries and cassinos, and an official lottery that is run by a state-licensed private company. Some slice of the profits go to the state, to make it seem morally acceptable. They run ads encouraging people to play; so, yes, I think they should go to jail.
A piece of clear thinking here at last! Congrats, you are going somewhere!
What about addictive substances, have they taken that market also, like here?
March 04, 2014, 03:24:15 PM
The killer app for Bitcoin in China is that it is a loophole to evade capital controls. This hasn't changed.
With the current restrictions, it does not seem to be very useful at that.
If a Chinese citizen buys bitcoin at Huobi with Yuan, sends the bitcoins over to Bitstamp, and exchanges then for dollars there, the end result (from PBoC's point of view) seems to be very different from him exchanging the Yuan for dollars at some international bank, or taking the Yuan to the US and changing them there.
In the first case, his yuan stay in China, and the dollars he gets come from the pockets of non-Chinese speculators. In the second case, the Yuan end up in non-Chinese hands, and can be exploited to manipulate Chinese inflation etc.. That, in my uderstanding, is why the PBoC does not seem to care anymore about bitcoin trading in the Chinese exchanges.
March 04, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
But that would mean getting the horse out of the stable, riding it down to the library and searching through through the card index to determine which vellum covered tome to consult to find the definition. And he doesn't even have any quills sharpened to take notes.
Just when you thought you might have seen it all, you meet a Luddite professor with a computer science degree. It's these little surprises that keep life interesting.
March 04, 2014, 03:23:19 PM
Because it's profitable to earn money at the expense of people who don't know any better.
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yge311sFhC8
March 04, 2014, 03:20:35 PM
Are you telling me that one of the biggest exchanges losing their customers money didn't cause a reversal from a downtrend that was caused by the loss of demand in China? How can this be? :O This is impossible!
Sounds like you missed the rally and hope to get another crack. GTFO. The correction to $530 was because of China. Gox took us down to $400. These things can overlap.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I'm angry because there won't be any volatility any longer in the crypto scene to make money at the expense of fools. So I just invented this so called "demand in China" and how it's loss caused a boring 2 month long dead cat bounce.
But I'll try to correct my ways and listen to the TA wizards here who have skillz of drawing linez.
It was game over for bitcoin in China when it was announced that there is no future for legal business supported by bitcoin. It ment that no serious investors who want to keep solid relations with the government won't touch bitcoin. The market that is left is basically walking on a thin line, only waiting for getting shut down and possibly prosecuted. Only thing that created the long dead cat bounce was denial, desperation and stupidity. If you have been looking at the charts then you know that overall demand has constantly been dropping, with only thing holding the price up is that there aren't many people who are willing to sell cheap. But this in turn is causing a decrease in volume and only way to stimulate the market is lowering the price little by litle...this will reach a critical point when the "will of the hodlers" will break and there will be a nice fall.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about this anymore, I have found that sarcasm is more suitable for this place. I'm tired of the "line drawers" calling for new and new bottoms for these past 2 months. You do whatever you wish and believe whatever you believe.
If you have such beliefs, then why are you hanging around here? Why dont you just sell your bitcoins and leave? Are you here to save the rest of us from ourselves from bitcoin from what? Or are you still investing in the meantime?
Because it's profitable to earn money at the expense of people who don't know any better.
March 04, 2014, 03:18:21 PM
What just happened on Bitstamp? 64 btc order down to 633, doesn't make sense. Anyone can confirm it's just a btcwisdom glitch, or did the trade actually hit 630 for real?
WTF?! Just checked on tradingview, they show it as well. Bitstamp trading enging fucked up?!
WTF?! Just checked on tradingview, they show it as well. Bitstamp trading enging fucked up?!
Like MoreFun said. The Api shows, that there were 2 trades went through. Check a few trades earlier or https://www.bitstamp.net/api/transactions/ (633.64)
The same happened at MtGox too and 4 weeks later MtGox has gone.
See my very first postings at this board:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4953836
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4954050
Now we will be stamped!!!
March 04, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
Are you telling me that one of the biggest exchanges losing their customers money didn't cause a reversal from a downtrend that was caused by the loss of demand in China? How can this be? :O This is impossible!
Sounds like you missed the rally and hope to get another crack. GTFO. The correction to $530 was because of China. Gox took us down to $400. These things can overlap.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I'm angry because there won't be any volatility any longer in the crypto scene to make money at the expense of fools. So I just invented this so called "demand in China" and how it's loss caused a boring 2 month long dead cat bounce.
But I'll try to correct my ways and listen to the TA wizards here who have skillz of drawing linez.
It was game over for bitcoin in China when it was announced that there is no future for legal business supported by bitcoin. It ment that no serious investors who want to keep solid relations with the government won't touch bitcoin. The market that is left is basically walking on a thin line, only waiting for getting shut down and possibly prosecuted. Only thing that created the long dead cat bounce was denial, desperation and stupidity. If you have been looking at the charts then you know that overall demand has constantly been dropping, with only thing holding the price up is that there aren't many people who are willing to sell cheap. But this in turn is causing a decrease in volume and only way to stimulate the market is lowering the price little by litle...this will reach a critical point when the "will of the hodlers" will break and there will be a nice fall.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about this anymore, I have found that sarcasm is more suitable for this place. I'm tired of the "line drawers" calling for new and new bottoms for these past 2 months. You do whatever you wish and believe whatever you believe.
If you have such beliefs, then why are you hanging around here? Why dont you just sell your bitcoins and leave? Are you here to save the rest of us from ourselves from bitcoin from what? Or are you still investing in the meantime?
March 04, 2014, 03:15:36 PM
Sound money. It is a thing. You can look it up.
But that would mean getting the horse out of the stable, riding it down to the library and searching through through the card index to determine which vellum covered tome to consult to find the definition. And he doesn't even have any quills sharpened to take notes.
You forgot he must ask the government for permission for each of those things, unless he can use the university license.
March 04, 2014, 03:13:45 PM
China didn't have anything to do with the downtrend in February, and there is no reason to suppose demand in China is decreasing. The biggest issue with China recently was the uncertainty of what would happen on January 31st (which amounted to nothing); and all we did in January was fluctuate around $800 while worrying about the possibility of something on the 31st. February's downtrend was caused by uncertainty in mtgox and other exchanges, lies about the extent of transaction malleability, some finally mtgox's insolvency. Those issues have mostly been resolved at this point.
Then how comes the price remained stable throughout the Chinese New Year's holiday week (from ~Jan/29 to ~Feb/05), when volume was very low at the Chinese exchanges; and started to decrease, with increased volume. as soon as the holiday ended and banks opened?
The MtGOX withdrawal problems did not seem to have any effect on China, which is understandable since MtGOX is as relevant to Chinese investors as BTC0China is to western ones. On the other hand, the announcement on Feb/10 of a "bug in bitcoin" did shake all markets, including China.
March 04, 2014, 03:10:02 PM
I have stated my position several times, but for those who did not see it:
* Cryptocoins are a great invention...
* Cryptocoins are a great invention...
The mere fact that you refer to them as cryptocoins tells me that you're ready to start giving sound market analysis.
-you don't own any "cryptocoins"
-you have a computer science degree from Stanford University
Do you really expect a different reaction from us? I have no problem with people giving honest criticisms to cryptocurrencies, but this is obviously not the forum in which to be doing it. I would think the developer forum would be more to your intellectual liking. Traders here are generally aware of how they work, inside and out, are aware of the risks, and have heard it all a hundred times before.
If you're going to post here, get your damn feet wet instead of shouting SHARK from the beach. You know how to swim, it'll be ok.
March 04, 2014, 03:07:12 PM
maybe off-topic, to people who think that they do take security seriously, please it is time to do some revision, I am reading around and I see a shocking amount of hacks and fraud going on for the last couple of days.
so you may consider:
1- check if you have all security features that your exchange offers already activated.
2- make sure that you use one of the best antivirus programs on the computer you use to browse around and make sure it is up to date.
3- don't leave funds on exchanges, if you daily trade and you have leave any funds there, then make sure to use e-mail confirmations and that your e-mail also has 2FA.
4- make sure that you use only one phone/device which is not rooted, and do not install garbage bitcoin apps or any other app games/garbage.
5- use paper wallets for your long term investment and save them in a safe place.
6- keep the for-daily use coins on an offline computer, use Armory, sign offline transaction and broadcast them on an online pc.
7- use different passwords on all sites, make them complicated and long (capital letters small letters, numbers and special characters)
8- don't keep any track of your passwords, keys or anything else on your computer, do it the old fashion way, write on a paper and save it somewhere safe.
9- encrypt about anything, I would recommend you to encrypt your entire dist as well, if you use linux this option is offered when installing the system, if you use windows then try PGP whole disk encryption, I use it and I recommend it.
10- use avg anti virus on your phone/device, activate the relocation option, there is also an option to wipe-out the device by sending a SMS to your phone if lost or stolen.
11- never trust anyone with your BTC, if you cant control the address then you don't own the BTC, any non reputable, non regulated online service can go offline, and you will lose all your funds (the new term is Goxed)
12- dont click on links without being sure where they direct, you can simply put the mouse cursor on it without clicking and check the address bar if it is a legit link, deactivate automatic redirection in your browser so you cant be tricked.
13- don't open e-mails from unknown sources, especially don't open spam e-mail, if you have to do so, then make sure to not open any executable attachment or any .pif extension, judge any site asking you to install "java plugin" or a "flash player" if YouTube works for you than you don't need any flash player or additional extensions, you are being a victim of a phishing attempt.
14- don't install any opensource software if you don't know what the code does, if can review the code your self then don't install without verifying the signature, especially don't install wallets of the daily created scam coins, some might be created just to steal your coins.
these are just some of the safety practices I can think about now, any user is welcome to add anything I might have forgotten to this list.
so you may consider:
1- check if you have all security features that your exchange offers already activated.
2- make sure that you use one of the best antivirus programs on the computer you use to browse around and make sure it is up to date.
3- don't leave funds on exchanges, if you daily trade and you have leave any funds there, then make sure to use e-mail confirmations and that your e-mail also has 2FA.
4- make sure that you use only one phone/device which is not rooted, and do not install garbage bitcoin apps or any other app games/garbage.
5- use paper wallets for your long term investment and save them in a safe place.
6- keep the for-daily use coins on an offline computer, use Armory, sign offline transaction and broadcast them on an online pc.
7- use different passwords on all sites, make them complicated and long (capital letters small letters, numbers and special characters)
8- don't keep any track of your passwords, keys or anything else on your computer, do it the old fashion way, write on a paper and save it somewhere safe.
9- encrypt about anything, I would recommend you to encrypt your entire dist as well, if you use linux this option is offered when installing the system, if you use windows then try PGP whole disk encryption, I use it and I recommend it.
10- use avg anti virus on your phone/device, activate the relocation option, there is also an option to wipe-out the device by sending a SMS to your phone if lost or stolen.
11- never trust anyone with your BTC, if you cant control the address then you don't own the BTC, any non reputable, non regulated online service can go offline, and you will lose all your funds (the new term is Goxed)
12- dont click on links without being sure where they direct, you can simply put the mouse cursor on it without clicking and check the address bar if it is a legit link, deactivate automatic redirection in your browser so you cant be tricked.
13- don't open e-mails from unknown sources, especially don't open spam e-mail, if you have to do so, then make sure to not open any executable attachment or any .pif extension, judge any site asking you to install "java plugin" or a "flash player" if YouTube works for you than you don't need any flash player or additional extensions, you are being a victim of a phishing attempt.
14- don't install any opensource software if you don't know what the code does, if can review the code your self then don't install without verifying the signature, especially don't install wallets of the daily created scam coins, some might be created just to steal your coins.
these are just some of the safety practices I can think about now, any user is welcome to add anything I might have forgotten to this list.
March 04, 2014, 03:06:17 PM
Are you telling me that one of the biggest exchanges losing their customers money didn't cause a reversal from a downtrend that was caused by the loss of demand in China? How can this be? :O This is impossible!
Sounds like you missed the rally and hope to get another crack. GTFO. The correction to $530 was because of China. Gox took us down to $400. These things can overlap.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I'm angry because there won't be any volatility any longer in the crypto scene to make money at the expense of fools. So I just invented this so called "demand in China" and how it's loss caused a boring 2 month long dead cat bounce.
But I'll try to correct my ways and listen to the TA wizards here who have skillz of drawing linez.
It was game over for bitcoin in China when it was announced that there is no future for legal business supported by bitcoin. It ment that no serious investors who want to keep solid relations with the government won't touch bitcoin. The market that is left is basically walking on a thin line, only waiting for getting shut down and possibly prosecuted. Only thing that created the long dead cat bounce was denial, desperation and stupidity. If you have been looking at the charts then you know that overall demand has constantly been dropping, with only thing holding the price up is that there aren't many people who are willing to sell cheap. But this in turn is causing a decrease in volume and only way to stimulate the market is lowering the price little by litle...this will reach a critical point when the "will of the hodlers" will break and there will be a nice fall.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about this anymore, I have found that sarcasm is more suitable for this place. I'm tired of the "line drawers" calling for new and new bottoms for these past 2 months. You do whatever you wish and believe whatever you believe.
The killer app for Bitcoin in China is that it is a loophole to evade capital controls. This hasn't changed. As theit national currency has devalued against the dollar and is likely to continue to do so, an inflation hedge is a secondary use. The gambling aspect just creates noise to obscure the underlying demand.
And you really believe that bitcoin is the best legal loophole in China to evade capital controls? Or even just a good way? Or that bitcoin is the most secure way to hedge against inflation? That a business owner actually buys bitcoins while saying "ha! now my wealth is safe in this stable and secure currency!".
They're evading capital control by moving wealth out of the country. Why, as you suggest, would they be holding bitcoin at the endpoint?
Just move your wealth through shell companies. If you want to move money out of China illegally, then you don't want to leave a trail of you buying bitcoins that is famous for this particular illegal activity. What you want to do is deal through companies that attract little attention.
March 04, 2014, 03:05:39 PM
Quote
Finally, when someone tries to convince others to buy lottery tickets, by telling them that it is a good investment, when his motive is actually to make a profit out of their "investment" -- then that guy is a scammer, and should go to jail
Maybe in your country, but in Europe, most of the lottery business are state exclusivity, a tax on dream...So should we put all gov's in jail ?
Only those who advertise it as "good investment", "chance to fix yourlife", etc.
As I said, I have no objections to gambling.In fact, I think that catering to addictions should be a function of the goverment, at zero or negative profit, precisely to avoid any marketing that would encourage them. (Seriously.)
Here in Brazil we have clandestine (illegal) lotteries and cassinos, and an official lottery that is run by a state-licensed private company. Some slice of the profits go to the state, to make it seem morally acceptable. They run ads encouraging people to play; so, yes, I think they should go to jail.
March 04, 2014, 03:01:07 PM
Breaking news - bitcoin is not banned in Russia.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zk28a/bitcoin_not_banned_in_russia_says_russian_central/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zk28a/bitcoin_not_banned_in_russia_says_russian_central/
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