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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33527. (Read 26495287 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Bitcoin might be a currency but since it's only numbers in a computer and not a physical object can it even be said to exist?  Anyway, surely it wouldn't be a crime for someone in the US to pay someone else in Euros or Stirling if they were both happy about it.  If the US government start using a clause like that then it's obviously only because they're miffed about not getting to tax it, but they'd probably use some BS excuse like counter-terrorism, protecting kids, etc like they always do for things they don't like.

See these are all the questions no one really has answers to.  There is all this grey area because of the internet.  But if the government is not getting it's cut, they are not going to let that ride.  Crypto certainly has it's challenges ahead.  This online tax bill in congress is alot bigger than I think some people understand.  The USG is looking to remove that grey area.  I'm not saying any of this is right or fair...I'm just saying it is what it is.

There's no "gray area" if you consider fiat currency to be a sound system.  Bitcoin dilutes the fiat economy, without introducing any value.  Just like printing more money.  If you are holding $$$, it's certainly not in your benefit for Bitcoin to succeed.  
legendary
Activity: 1600
Merit: 1014
Can't you sue the DHS? Some loaded early adopter should be able to afford an expensive lawyer, and that's what it's all about in USA, isn't it?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Keyword being LEGAL tender.

You are misunderstanding the term "legal tender".

Quote
A medium of payment allowed by law or recognized by a legal system to be valid for meeting a financial obligation.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

So that doesn't mean using anything else to pay is illegal, it simply means I cannot force you to pay in anything other than the medium defined by law as legal tender.   If you and I want to trade using seashells (which are anonymous, and can be traded anymously), that is not using legal tender but it most certainly is not prohibited by law.

The transaction itself is not illegal.  I concede that point.  But not paying the taxes on the transaction is illegal.  
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Are the Americans up already? Panic or not?

Yeah it's early.  I'm going to be dead today.  Just looking at the asks vs bids would tell me this thing is headed back down but, what do I know?  I learned about Bitcoin some 6 weeks or so ago and it seems it does whatever it wants.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
This account was recently hacked
So that doesn't mean using anything else to pay is illegal, it simply means I cannot force you to pay in anything other than the medium defined by law as legal tender.   If you and I want to trade using seashells (which are anonymous, and can be traded anymously), that is not using legal tender but it most certainly is not prohibited by law.
+1
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Are the Americans up already? Panic or not?
We're awake.  Panic! Cheesy  
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
Keyword being LEGAL tender.

You are misunderstanding the term "legal tender".

Quote
A medium of payment allowed by law or recognized by a legal system to be valid for meeting a financial obligation.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

So that doesn't mean using anything else to pay is illegal, it simply means I cannot force you to pay in anything other than the medium defined by law as legal tender.   If you and I want to trade using seashells (which are anonymous, and can be traded anymously), that is not using legal tender but it most certainly is not prohibited by law.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Bitcoin might be a currency but since it's only numbers in a computer and not a physical object can it even be said to exist?  Anyway, surely it wouldn't be a crime for someone in the US to pay someone else in Euros or Stirling if they were both happy about it.  If the US government start using a clause like that then it's obviously only because they're miffed about not getting to tax it, but they'd probably use some BS excuse like counter-terrorism, protecting kids, etc like they always do for things they don't like.

See these are all the questions no one really has answers to.  There is all this grey area because of the internet.  But if the government is not getting it's cut, they are not going to let that ride.  Crypto certainly has it's challenges ahead.  This online tax bill in congress is alot bigger than I think some people understand.  The USG is looking to remove that grey area.  I'm not saying any of this is right or fair...I'm just saying it is what it is.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
This account was recently hacked
Are the Americans up already? Panic or not?
7.28am in New York.  Some will have reacted to this news last night but a lot of others will have gone to bed before the news broke.  How significant the news is doesn't matter, what matters is how significant people think it is and how they react to it.
legendary
Activity: 1600
Merit: 1014
Are the Americans up already? Panic or not?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

"An astute reader may note that legal tender only concerns the repayment of debt, taxes, duties, and dues."
Citizens are free to use any currency for an unofficial transaction.

Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

That's your answer. Legal tender only matters where the government or judicial system is involved.
So you can't pay taxes in bitcoins. But you can pay your neighbor bitcoins for some vegetables.

You know, upon rereading that, that could be a really good legal loophole as long as transactions remained private.  That still would prevent legal mass adoption by businesses I would think, as every legal business needs a business license issued by the government but that is an argument that could be made.  Nice.  
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
This account was recently hacked
Bitcoin might be a currency but since it's only numbers in a computer and not a physical object can it even be said to exist?  Anyway, surely it wouldn't be a crime for someone in the US to pay someone else in Euros or Stirling if they were both happy about it.  If the US government start using a clause like that then it's obviously only because they're miffed about not getting to tax it, but they'd probably use some BS excuse like counter-terrorism, protecting kids, etc like they always do for things they don't like.

Besides which, contrary to popular opinion the US is not the whole planet
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

From my limited understanding as well (so nothing dumb about it, my friend) a business can not accept a foriegn currency.  It can only deal in US legal tender.  It's not illegal to possess them, but to spend them in the US, on US goods and services is a clear violation of US policy.

So by that thinking, and as one stated earlier, owning Bitcoins is not illegal.  Using them is or at least technically.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

"An astute reader may note that legal tender only concerns the repayment of debt, taxes, duties, and dues."
Citizens are free to use any currency for an unofficial transaction.

Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

That's your answer. Legal tender only matters where the government or judicial system is involved.
So you can't pay taxes in bitcoins. But you can pay your neighbor bitcoins for some vegetables.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
@Coinseeker: Bitcoin can be compared to the "currencies" of barter clubs. There are barter organizations in many countries, including nearly all western ones. Another "currencies" that are similar are flight miles. There is nothing illegal with that, many multi-million-dollar companies use them.

I agree and that's where that grey area comes in.  But even flight miles are not the same as Bitcoin.  You can't exchange them for cash (to my knowledge) and are only available on products and services the airlines have paid for at discounted rates, to offer as incentives.  They pass these extra cost to their customers so really, it's just a brilliant marketing strategy and not an actual currency.  Bitcoin is a currency.  No question about it.
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?
legendary
Activity: 2097
Merit: 1070
Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency


Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

Try and pay for your lunch with a $100 bill and see what happens.


Um...they'll give me some food and hand me back the change.   Huh   What am I missing?

You're missing all the signs that say no bills higher than $20 will be accepted.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
@Coinseeker: Bitcoin can be compared to the "currencies" of barter clubs. There are barter organizations in many countries, including nearly all western ones. Another "currencies" that are similar are flight miles. There is nothing illegal with that, many multi-million-dollar companies use them.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency


Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

Try and pay for your lunch with a $100 bill and see what happens.


Um...they'll give me some food and hand me back the change.   Huh   What am I missing?
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Good morning! Hope you all grabbed some cheap coins yesterday  Grin

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