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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 410. (Read 901368 times)

legendary
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June 13, 2015, 01:25:46 PM

This doesn't prove that your "Reality" is either deterministic or random (let alone a "synthesis" of both)...

I wasn't trying to prove that reality is "either deterministic or random."

You evidently tried to prove your point by excluding both options ("there is nothing external to reality which is real enough to determine it"), that is why I pointed out that they can be "enabled" from inside the world

1)  The point is that we know deterministic and indeterministic explanations of events both exist and that they are at odds with each other.  Treated as the only two options, we're left with a paradox in need of resolution.  Regardless of what that resolution is, we know it's desperately needed, else we're forever at an impasse, similar to the impasse between classical and quantum physics.  Neither type of explanation is sufficient for comprehensive explanation.

I strongly disagree with that. Ultimately, the discrepancy between explanations of events arises not because determinism and randomness are mutually exclusive but rather due to a lack of knowledge at one side and even greater lack of knowledge at the other. Your seeming paradox disappears if you deign to accept that we just don't know enough to make a final judgment (which is the right explanation), and, most likely, will never know...

So, as I said before, there is no "true" randomness in the world, since all randomness is "fake", in a sense (even if reality is truly random), and can be reduced to just lack of knowledge or proper understanding
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 01:09:52 PM

This doesn't prove that your "Reality" is either deterministic or random (let alone a "synthesis" of both)...

I wasn't trying to prove that reality is "either deterministic or random."

You evidently tried to prove your point by excluding both options ("there is nothing external to reality which is real enough to determine it"), that is why I pointed out that they can be "enabled" from inside the world

1)  The point is that we know deterministic and indeterministic explanations of events both exist and that they are at odds with each other.  Treated as the only two options, we're left with a paradox in need of resolution.  Regardless of what that resolution is, we know it's desperately needed, else we're forever at an impasse, similar to the impasse between classical and quantum physics.  Neither type of explanation is sufficient for comprehensive explanation.  

Accordingly, I'm not "excluding" both options, but rather circumventing the impasse that arises from assuming that they must be explained in terms of themselves, when neither has the ability to do so.

http://tinypic.com/r/lbhjn/8
Determinism: A ⇒ B  (leaving no explanation for A)
Indeterminism: A (leaving no explanation for A or anything external or intrinsic to A)
Self-determinism: A ⇒ A (closes the loop)
Intrinsic self-determinism: A' ⇒ A0, A1, A2... (provides completeness and self-consistency for A', precludes anything external to A', and providing explanation for A0, A1, A2...)  

Furthermore, asserting that Reality is instead "self-determinate," and that self-determination is an explanatory model synthesizing both determinism and indeterminism, does not amount to saying that Reality is both determinate and indeterminate.  Rather, I'm asserting it is self-determinate, of which determinism and indeterminism are constituents.

I don't understand what you're talking about (and what you wrote after I understand even less). You should prove that there is a "third option" (or provide strong arguments for claiming that), beyond just determinism and randomness being there. Correct exclusion of both would work as well...

In short, make it readable

I'm trying to show you that a 3rd, better option must necessarily exist by virtue of the incompleteness of both determinism and indeterminism.

Determinism is a model which fails to account for itself, but accounts for that which it contains.
Indeterminism is a model which fails to account for itself or anything else.
Self-determinism accounts for itself and that which it contains.  By virtue of this alone, it is self-evidently a better model. The proof is in the pudding, so-to-speak.

All you would have to do to falsify the self-determinism model (i.e. falsify in the sense that it is necessarily weaker than determinate or indeterminate models) is to find a determinate or indeterminate event which cannot be explained by it, thereby rendering it internally invalid.  Else, you must necessarily concede to its superiority.

Remember, a model is simply a picture of how something works.  "Proof" of a model as a superior alternative to any other is determined by its consistency, and since I am simply trying to show you that it is a better model than a determinate or indeterminate one, the only type of consistency we care about is internal consistency.  In other words, it only needs to prove itself consistent inasmuch as consistently explaining determinancy and indeterminancy.  This is why "the proof is in the pudding."  You might be more concerned about whether a self-determinate model is extrinsically invalid, but due to the incompleteness of determinate and indeterminate models, we know that neither of these would extrinsically invalidate a self-determinate model.
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 01:07:18 PM
My grandfather was a atheist and he preached it all the way up to his death bed. That's where he had every religion he could get his hands on come to see him and now I have to worry that I will do the same on my death bed. Grin

As they say, atheism ends with the first flight, and there are no atheists in the resuscitation unit. Everyone will be judged according to what they have done...
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June 13, 2015, 01:04:06 PM
My grandfather was a atheist and he preached it all the way up to his death bed. That's where he had every religion he could get his hands on come to see him and now I have to worry that I will do the same on my death bed. Grin
legendary
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Terminated.
June 13, 2015, 12:20:42 PM
I wonder though when did the thread become a discussion of reality? I thought this was about atheists and religion?

Religion is a tricky subject due to a lot of the things that are told are based on faith. You need to take the word of a book,prophet or god that there is a after life. You throw in history of religious groups killing one another and it gets even more murky.
Also a lot of it is not up for debate and that alone is a issue that makes it a little ugly.

Humans have had a need to group up for survival or believe in something forever,its nothing new and it most likely is deep in the dna.

I am not angry about it,just wish it would not override the way the world operates.
Correct. I guess it is one of those topics that causes opposing sides to heavily argue. However you can't really ever get "proof" that a "god" didn't exist, nor could you get proof that reality exists or doesn't.
The following is also a problem:

hero member
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June 13, 2015, 12:18:35 PM
I wonder if humans are capable of peace,it seems like we are programed to divide into groups/tribes based on whatever we can come up with to achieve that goal.

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June 13, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
Both sides have good and bad people in it. but I don't like either side trying to convert people into their way of thinking, I prefer leaving people in peace.
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 11:52:37 AM

This doesn't prove that your "Reality" is either deterministic or random (let alone a "synthesis" of both)...

I wasn't trying to prove that reality is "either deterministic or random."

You evidently tried to prove your point by excluding (disproving) both options ("there is nothing external to reality which is real enough to determine it") as I got it. That is why I pointed out that they can be "enabled" from inside the world. Most likely, I should have used disprove instead of prove

Furthermore, asserting that Reality is instead "self-determinate," and that self-determination is an explanatory model synthesizing both determinism and indeterminism, does not amount to saying that Reality is both determinate and indeterminate.  Rather, I'm asserting it is self-determinate, of which determinism and indeterminism are constituents.

How is "self-determinate" is different from just "determinate", given that both determinism and indeterminism would be inherent to the world (though still mutually exclusive)? I don't see any difference between "self-determinate" and just "determinate", "self-indeterminate" and just "indeterminate"

In fact, I don't understand what you're talking about (and what you wrote after I understand even less). You should prove that there is a "third option" (or provide strong arguments for claiming that), beyond just determinism and randomness being there. Correct exclusion of both would work as well (remember though, both options are "self-establishing")...

In short, make it readable
hero member
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Never ending parties are what Im into.
June 13, 2015, 11:48:56 AM
Religion is a tricky subject due to a lot of the things that are told are based on faith. You need to take the word of a book,prophet or god that there is a after life. You throw in history of religious groups killing one another and it gets even more murky.
Also a lot of it is not up for debate and that alone is a issue that makes it a little ugly.

Humans have had a need to group up for survival or believe in something forever,its nothing new and it most likely is deep in the dna.

I am not angry about it,just wish it would not override the way the world operates.
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 11:37:01 AM

This doesn't prove that your "Reality" is either deterministic or random (let alone a "synthesis" of both)...

I wasn't trying to prove that reality is "either deterministic or random."  Furthermore, asserting that Reality is instead "self-determinate," and that self-determination is an explanatory model synthesizing both determinism and indeterminism, does not amount to saying that Reality is both determinate and indeterminate.  Rather, I'm asserting it is self-determinate, of which determinism and indeterminism are constituents.

Quote
...since there is nothing that would forbid the "causes" for both determinacy and indeterminacy (whichever you choose to stick with) to be this Reality's attributes, i.e. inherent properties...

Correct, but this doesn't necessarily lead to an infinite regression.  Where is the infinite regression, for example, in A --> B --> C --> A --> ...?

Quote
And, I guess, what is meant by "self-guidance" has nothing to do with that synthesis, which is not possible per se (since as soon as you allow some randomness, the world ultimately becomes indeterministic)

Incorrect, except at a topological level of understanding.  Determinism and indeterminism are concepts formulated out of relevance to each other, similar to causality and randomness.  Randomness is a product of a causal probability function of randomness.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/lpgerson/Plato_On_Identity_Sameness_And_Difference.pdf

Quote
The answer to the objection that we could specify identity and have nothing left
over for sameness is this. The attempt to identify, let alone re-identify, an existent with
divisible identity requires the inclusion of its divisible essence. That is, it is by using
divisible essence as a criterion that we identify something. For example, we determine
that this man has the same height today that he had yesterday. The divisible essence
cannot itself be constitutive of the existential identity. In the above frames (2) and (3), to
identify A1 or A2, we have to cognize it as something, as having some structure or other.
We have to cognize its divisible essence, regardless of our theory of what essence is
exactly or how we cognize it. The only way that the sameness of A1 and A2 could be
made impossible is by claiming that the identity of each is utterly uncognizable. Since
we do cognize divisible essence, the impossibility of sameness among different selfidentical
things is refuted, which is all Plato really needs to do. For the nominalist
objections do not amount to a quibble about this or that case of sameness; they typically
rest on the denial of the very possibility of sameness among self-identical things.36

Quote
What we are saying in all these cases is,
basically, that two or more things that appear to be different in some way or another
really are identical or one.39 In Platonic terms, we are saying that a diversity of essence
rests upon an identity.

Determinism and indeterminism, or causality and randomness, arise from a diversity of essence resting upon a common identity.  Any event we deem to be "random" is variant with respect to external causality (e.g. a random result "x" from a RNG is caused by a chance probability function), and any event we deem to be "causal" is invariant with respect to internal acausality (e.g. an RNG is not dependent upon its mutually-exclusive products).

Self-determinism (in this case, of logic, which both describes and is described by itself), synthesizes these perspectives to unify our understanding of them, relatively in terms of each other, and absolutely in terms of self-determinism.
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June 13, 2015, 11:05:13 AM
I live in India, the land of religions. Every other person believes on some weird deity and donates a little of his income and complete faith into worshipping them hoping that it changes their life.

The reason why I hate religions is that people blame their 'God' for all the bad things and mostly call it 'goodluck' when some good thing happens.

Gratitude. What happened to that? Anyway, Religion is like making a fat kid believe he is full of food and the food already exists in its stomach. All he needs to do is keep faith and believe in it.

I've always believed in Jesus Christ as my savior, and actually see Him doing things in my life depending on what I'm praying for (knowing it has to be God's will or He won't do it). I've never "hoped" that He would change my life. I just know He's there and working on things. It's amazing what can happen when you actually believe and ask for help (as long as it's God's will) and see things fall into place.

I know others will say that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but these things that are happening are not in my power to be happening because I want them to, they're happening all over the country to others. Then you'd say it would be happening anyway. People will believe what they will believe. I'm not going to try to push anyone.

God can work miracles, but people have free will. Bad things will happen, because there are sinful people out there who enjoy doing them. But the wicked will be found out. (Psalm 10)
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June 13, 2015, 10:52:57 AM
I live in India, the land of religions. Every other person believes on some weird deity and donates a little of his income and complete faith into worshipping them hoping that it changes their life.

The reason why I hate religions is that people blame their 'God' for all the bad things and mostly call it 'goodluck' when some good thing happens.

Gratitude. What happened to that? Anyway, Religion is like making a fat kid believe he is full of food and the food already exists in its stomach. All he needs to do is keep faith and believe in it.
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 10:00:14 AM
And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.

Thereby all "randomness" can potentially be reduced to just a pure lack of knowledge (or faith, for that matter), right? I mean that you (or scientists) cannot prove that there is "true" randomness at all, be it quantum randomness or whatever else sort of randomness (the hypothesis of the "hidden variables")...

Ultimately, you are still stuck with the Primary Cause (and the cause of that, wtf)
 

Determinancy vs. Indeterminancy is a false dichotomy.  Self-determinancy or self-configuration is a 3rd option.

So things get even more complicated than that. Though, personally, I doubt that what you call "self-determinancy" (or "self-configuration") cannot be further reduced to either of the first two...

You should prove otherwise (for it to be a "3rd option")

The set of Reality contains that and only that which is real.  If there were something 'real enough' outside of Reality so as to be able to affect it, then obviously it wouldn't be outside of Reality, but rather inside.

Accordingly, there is nothing external to reality which is real enough to determine it.  There is no need to look for an infinite regression in a self-contained system.  Reality must embody the rules of self-configuration because there is nothing external to it which is real enough to configure it.

This doesn't prove that your "Reality" is either deterministic or random (let alone a "synthesis" of both), since there is nothing that would forbid the "causes" for both determinacy and indeterminacy (whichever you choose to stick with) to be this Reality's attributes, i.e. inherent properties...

And, I guess, what is meant by "self-guidance" has nothing to do with that synthesis, which is not possible per se (since as soon as you allow some randomness, the world ultimately becomes indeterministic)
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 09:40:35 AM
And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.

Thereby all "randomness" can potentially be reduced to just a pure lack of knowledge (or faith, for that matter), right? I mean that you (or scientists) cannot prove that there is "true" randomness at all, be it quantum randomness or whatever else sort of randomness (the hypothesis of the "hidden variables")...

Ultimately, you are still stuck with the Primary Cause (and the cause of that, wtf)
 

Determinancy vs. Indeterminancy is a false dichotomy.  Self-determinancy or self-configuration is a 3rd option.

So things get even more complicated than that. Though, personally, I doubt that what you call "self-determinancy" (or "self-configuration") cannot be further reduced to either of the first two...

You should prove otherwise (for it to be a "3rd option")

The set of Reality contains that and only that which is real.  If there were something 'real enough' outside of Reality so as to be able to affect it, then obviously it wouldn't be outside of Reality, but rather inside.

Accordingly, there is nothing external to reality which is real enough to determine it.  There is no need to look for an infinite regression in a self-contained system.  Reality must embody the rules of self-configuration because there is nothing external to it which is real enough to configure it.

Edit:  Think of self-determinancy or self-configuration as a synthesis of determinancy and indeterminancy.  Note that logic is self-determinant or self-configuring, i.e. "sound logic is soundly logical according to sound logic."
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 09:29:02 AM
And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.

Thereby all "randomness" can potentially be reduced to just a pure lack of knowledge (or faith, for that matter), right? I mean that you (or scientists) cannot prove that there is "true" randomness at all, be it quantum randomness or whatever else sort of randomness (the hypothesis of the "hidden variables")...

Ultimately, you are still stuck with the Primary Cause (and the cause of that, wtf)
 

Determinancy vs. Indeterminancy is a false dichotomy.  Self-determinancy or self-configuration is a 3rd option.

So things get even more complicated than that. Though, personally, I doubt that what you call "self-determinancy" (or "self-configuration") cannot be further reduced to either of the first two. You should prove otherwise (for it to be a "3rd option")...

Or, at least, make a strong case in favor of your assumption
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 09:05:28 AM
But what if you've got it backwards?
"Cause and effect" are ideas in our minds, which we've somehow acquired in trying to explain the world. Our senses provide us with data about the world, and we use our reason to figure out what we're looking at.

And funnily enough, you might be unwittingly throwing away a huge piece of evidence which supports the possibility of a god. I.e.: randomness.
Take quantum randomness for example. Radioactive decay or photons mysteriously picking a definite but random-looking path, etc. This is actually hopeful for non-atheists because it's something atheists can't explain with a purely causal universe. As far as science can tell, nothing "causes" radioactive decay, it just happens all by itself.

And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.

Thereby all "randomness" can potentially be reduced to just a pure lack of knowledge (or faith, for that matter), right? I mean that you (or scientists) cannot prove that there is "true" randomness at all, be it quantum randomness or whatever else sort of randomness (the hypothesis of the "hidden variables")...

Ultimately, you are still stuck with the Primary Cause (and the cause of that, wtf)
 

Determinancy vs. Indeterminancy is a false dichotomy.  Self-determinancy or self-configuration is a 3rd option.
legendary
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June 13, 2015, 06:19:14 AM
But what if you've got it backwards?
"Cause and effect" are ideas in our minds, which we've somehow acquired in trying to explain the world. Our senses provide us with data about the world, and we use our reason to figure out what we're looking at.

And funnily enough, you might be unwittingly throwing away a huge piece of evidence which supports the possibility of a god. I.e.: randomness.
Take quantum randomness for example. Radioactive decay or photons mysteriously picking a definite but random-looking path, etc. This is actually hopeful for non-atheists because it's something atheists can't explain with a purely causal universe. As far as science can tell, nothing "causes" radioactive decay, it just happens all by itself.

And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.

Thereby all "randomness" can potentially be reduced to just a pure lack of knowledge (or faith, for that matter), right? I mean that you (or scientists) cannot prove that there is "true" randomness at all, be it quantum randomness or whatever else sort of randomness (the hypothesis of the "hidden variables")...

Ultimately, you are still stuck with the Primary Cause (and the cause of that, wtf)
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June 13, 2015, 05:59:55 AM
Some of this is correct.

We don't know as fact where the universe came from.
We don't know as fact regarding how it came into being.
We also know that we are also tied to cause and effect in everything so that true random essentially doesn't exist.
We know that people's minds and thoughts are products of the causation of cause and effect.

We know by observation of how everything operates that everything is intelligently designed.
We know that stuff doesn't appear out of nowhere without a cause.

In other words, science knows very little about the basics. But what it DOES know suggests that there is an Intelligent Designer.

Smiley

But what if you've got it backwards?
"Cause and effect" are ideas in our minds, which we've somehow acquired in trying to explain the world. Our senses provide us with data about the world, and we use our reason to figure out what we're looking at.

And funnily enough, you might be unwittingly throwing away a huge piece of evidence which supports the possibility of a god. I.e.: randomness.
Take quantum randomness for example. Radioactive decay or photons mysteriously picking a definite but random-looking path, etc. This is actually hopeful for non-atheists because it's something atheists can't explain with a purely causal universe. As far as science can tell, nothing "causes" radioactive decay, it just happens all by itself.

And if randomness happens all by itself, it could legitimately be a kind of back door for creative interference. Tinker a little in the right places, and you get a causal cascade. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you and we're actually in agreement on this? People often seem to have this idea that randomness has some special property of being truly random. It doesn't have to "be" random at all, all we know is that we call something random if it looks random. There are plenty of examples where encoded messages have a white noise spectrum if you're not the intended recipient.
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June 11, 2015, 06:51:50 PM
For the same reason some religious people hate other people who don't share their views
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https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
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