why do people agree to pay taxes? - page 140.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:58:54 AM

the goal is to dismantle the government, abolish all taxes and allow anyone to offer the services the government is currently monopolizing.

Like running Aircraft carriers? Cheesy

You see even if you would by some miracle take out your "targets" it would still not give you control over the real means power is projected in this world.

That's why any successful coup in recent history was a military one.

troy112

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If not for Taxes, how will the community you live in will run? Accept Donations?
Just think like this when you are living in a developed community you have to give back for what community gives to you. And they are in the form of Taxes. Yes, Taxes are biased and more than they should be. But the community can't run without them.

Ok, you don't wanna live in community, go to forest. There also you'll have to give back, maybe in the form of time or in any other form of resources.
Only Taking taking and taking is not sustainable.

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 16, 2014, 10:51:57 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:40:46 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 16, 2014, 10:36:26 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:25:07 AM

even if none of the cops and soldiers (who are not exactly being paid top dollar and may actually agree that the government has become totalitarian, violated the constitution, and must be stopped) join up its still not enough to stop an army of a million people who are already inside the country and are flooding into the New York FED and DC.
there is no way to stop such a blitzkrieg except by committing suicide and nuking New York.

What makes you think those 1 million will actually make it to the NY FED or DC?

most of them probably already live nearby, 1 million armed people is alot of firepower.
especially if alot of local non federal police joins up and starts helping to clear the roads.

Ok then what/who will you be shooting at?

ideally nothing/no one.
the goal is to dismantle the government, abolish all taxes and allow anyone to offer the services the government is currently monopolizing.

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: Cluster2k on October 16, 2014, 10:49:55 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 15, 2014, 07:43:32 PM

why is it ok for a group of people calling themselves the government to force everyone to buy their services?

Every time I would reverse my car out of the driveway I would have to pay a toll for road use. Don't know what kind of tolls I would have to pay through various sections of my city: some roads are more popular than others. If I need to call police or a firetruck they would send me a complete bill afterwards and probably ask for a credit card number before attending. When a relative developed cancer the hospital didn't take their house to pay for the specialist treatment. It would be interesting to watch how my nation's military would fund equipment used in disaster rescues and bushfires. My house has never burned down: screw those people in another state if they drown or burn.

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 15, 2014, 07:43:32 PM

if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

It would be an interesting experiment. There are a few countries where armed militant groups do tell the government to fornicate itself. Somalia comes to mind. Problem is, those groups then themselves go pillage the country.

there are no free meals.

you are already paying for the roads you use, you're just paying much more because they are built by an inefficient government monopoly.
same goes for the police and fire department, you are already forced to buy those services from the government, and because there is no competition there is exactly zero incentive for them to be more efficient, its not like you can go use someone else for those services.
you're also paying for the cancer treatment of other people, its just you're over paying because instead of a private insurance company setting competitive rates you have a government monopoly setting them.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:40:46 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 16, 2014, 10:36:26 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:25:07 AM

even if none of the cops and soldiers (who are not exactly being paid top dollar and may actually agree that the government has become totalitarian, violated the constitution, and must be stopped) join up its still not enough to stop an army of a million people who are already inside the country and are flooding into the New York FED and DC.
there is no way to stop such a blitzkrieg except by committing suicide and nuking New York.

What makes you think those 1 million will actually make it to the NY FED or DC?

most of them probably already live nearby, 1 million armed people is alot of firepower.
especially if alot of local non federal police joins up and starts helping to clear the roads.

Ok then what/who will you be shooting at?

Cluster2k

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 15, 2014, 07:43:32 PM

why is it ok for a group of people calling themselves the government to force everyone to buy their services?

Every time I would reverse my car out of the driveway I would have to pay a toll for road use. Don't know what kind of tolls I would have to pay through various sections of my city: some roads are more popular than others. If I need to call police or a firetruck they would send me a complete bill afterwards and probably ask for a credit card number before attending. When a relative developed cancer the hospital didn't take their house to pay for the specialist treatment. Let's face it, if you're seriously ill through no fault of your own the hospital can take your car, house, and possibly a few other trinkets too. Can't pay? Go die in a gutter.

It would be interesting to watch how my nation's military would fund equipment used in disaster rescues and bushfires. My house has never burned down: screw those people in another state if they drown or burn.

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 15, 2014, 07:43:32 PM

if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

It would be an interesting experiment. There are a few countries where armed militant groups do tell the government to fornicate itself. Somalia comes to mind. Problem is, those groups then themselves go pillage the country.

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 10:40:40 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:10:00 AM

the reason there are messed up places like that is not because of lack of government, its because of the mentality of the people there.
if they form a government it will be even worse then the situation where the warlords don't have a monopoly on military power.

America would not turn into a place like that should the government disappear, because the ethics of the people are different.
people in America generally respect the non aggression principle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

It is easy to think that "those people" are just doing it wrong and that Americans are somehow different. But there is no evidence of that. I, for example, do not respect non-aggression. I would offer free booty and slaves for those who will pillage with me. There is no middle ground, you are a slave or you are a king in an anarchy. You can probably guess how many kings are needed in such a system.

I saw a good example in Croatia during the civil war. Everyone thought that since they were Europeans it couldn't get that ugly. Well, they fought tooth and nail like beasts. No different than the wars I saw in Africa or Central America.

If this were a real anarchy then the posters in this thread would be put to the sword for saying what they said. But don't hate the warlord, he's just exercising his freedom.

you would not be able to pillage anyone because they would be defended by a whole bunch of private armies who do respect non aggression because wars cost money and its better for business to just settle disputes in an agreed private court.
as long as the majority of military power respects non aggression a minority attacker will not be successful.
same way as you need 51% of hashing power in bitcoin to consistently attack the network successfully.

the reason those messed up countries don't work is that the majority doesn't follow the non aggression protocol, that's not the case in America.

having multiple privately funded armies sharing power is not exactly anarchy.
because they have to compete for customers the free market will weed out the ineffective non profitable armies and you would be left with very effective protection against any aggression.

CryptoCarmen

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There are wery old ideas of not paying much taxes, and make everything private. If you need road make it by yourself. If you need school same. There was some lady in USA, i think all this even name after her. She lived like 100 years ago. i saw documentary recently.

That documentary also said taxes for rich decreased liek 3 times in last 30 years.

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 16, 2014, 10:36:26 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:25:07 AM

even if none of the cops and soldiers (who are not exactly being paid top dollar and may actually agree that the government has become totalitarian, violated the constitution, and must be stopped) join up its still not enough to stop an army of a million people who are already inside the country and are flooding into the New York FED and DC.
there is no way to stop such a blitzkrieg except by committing suicide and nuking New York.

What makes you think those 1 million will actually make it to the NY FED or DC?

most of them probably already live nearby, 1 million armed people is alot of firepower.
especially if alot of local non federal police joins up and starts helping to clear the roads.

RodeoX

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:10:00 AM

the reason there are messed up places like that is not because of lack of government, its because of the mentality of the people there.
if they form a government it will be even worse then the situation where the warlords don't have a monopoly on military power.

America would not turn into a place like that should the government disappear, because the ethics of the people are different.
people in America generally respect the non aggression principle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

It is easy to think that "those people" are just doing it wrong and that Americans are somehow different. But there is no evidence of that. I, for example, do not respect non-aggression. I would offer free booty and slaves for those who will pillage with me. There is no middle ground, you are a slave or you are a king in an anarchy. You can probably guess how many kings are needed in such a system.

I saw a good example in Croatia during the civil war. Everyone thought that since they were Europeans it couldn't get that ugly. Well, they fought tooth and nail like beasts. No different than the wars I saw in Africa or Central America.

If this were a real anarchy then the posters in this thread would be put to the sword for saying what they said. But don't hate the warlord, he's just exercising his freedom.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 10:25:07 AM

even if none of the cops and soldiers (who are not exactly being paid top dollar and may actually agree that the government has become totalitarian, violated the constitution, and must be stopped) join up its still not enough to stop an army of a million people who are already inside the country and are flooding into the New York FED and DC.
there is no way to stop such a blitzkrieg except by committing suicide and nuking New York.

What makes you think those 1 million will actually make it to the NY FED or DC?

aigeezer

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Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 10:00:05 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:42:16 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

Self interest.

Ever been to a place without a functioning government? Your only missing out on the freedom of dying of a toothache at 30. Freeeedooooom!! Roll Eyes

sure, because only the government can heal a toothache.
let me tell you a secret, the doctor who takes care of you does not work for the government, in fact he wouldn't have to charge as much money if he didn't have to pay the free loader bureaucrats in the government their protection money.

I have spent a lot of time in the most impoverished places in the world. There are no dentists or doctors. Why? because there is only the strong and the weak. Any attempt to be a doctor would just get you kidnapped and held treating soldiers. I mean, why should I not keep a slave doctor?

If you lived in such a place you could not afford a dentist anyway. You would spend your time doing whatever the local warlord says you will do. No choices, no opportunity, just a lifetime of fear and poverty. That's what it's like, and I never met a person in a place like that who liked it.

In that context, the "local warlord" IS the government. Same game, different labels.

There is no way out of this that I can see, except perhaps through some kind of peer-to-peer decision-making and "the madness of crowds" is notoriously dangerous also.

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 16, 2014, 10:18:44 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:53:09 AM

even if none of them join the drones won't stop a mass of a million people, how many drones do you think they have.
once the central bank is under control and the pay checks to the army stop arriving its game over.

That depends on who you think they are. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/aug/03/drone-stocks-by-country#
According to this the US has 678, and the Air National Guard 42 MQ-1B Predator and 14 MQ-9 Reaper.
THEY also have not only drones but tanks, ships, u-boots and a bunch of riot cops/soldiers who will tear gas you not because they are payed to do so but because you are the "traitor".

even if none of the cops and soldiers (who are not exactly being paid top dollar and may actually agree that the government has become totalitarian, violated the constitution, and must be stopped) join up its still not enough to stop an army of a million people who are already inside the country and are flooding into the New York FED and DC.
there is no way to stop such a blitzkrieg except by committing suicide and nuking New York.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:53:09 AM

even if none of them join the drones won't stop a mass of a million people, how many drones do you think they have.
once the central bank is under control and the pay checks to the army stop arriving its game over.

That depends on who you think they are. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/aug/03/drone-stocks-by-country#
According to this the US has 678, and the Air National Guard 42 MQ-1B Predator and 14 MQ-9 Reaper. And that was over two years ago.
THEY also have not only drones but tanks, ships, u-boots and a bunch of riot cops/soldiers who will tear gas you not because they are payed to do so but because you are the "traitor".

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: Sunderland on October 16, 2014, 10:11:52 AM

Gov use our tax money is for building the whole country ( but you know and we know about corrupt in our gov )
Like highway , shelter , military etc.
i hate to say about this , but yes we have to agree pay taxes.

the government doesn't do anything, it takes money from you and buys highways and weapons from private companies.
why not cut the middle man and just buy our own roads from the same companies?
why should the government even decide we need a new road, maybe we already have enough roads, why are we allowing them to force us to pay for things they say we need?

Sunderland

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Gov use our tax money is for building the whole country ( but you know and we know about corrupt in our gov )
Like highway , shelter , military etc.
i hate to say about this , but yes we have to agree pay taxes.

NeuroticFish

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Some of the taxes are good. They make or maintain roads, they pay your medic (in some countries) of that.

The problem is the amount of those taxes and the way they are used. Because the "government" pays the "law enforcement" from our money to punish us if we don't pay those taxes.
But since the beginning of "civilization" the rich asked money from the poor and paid the "police" to protect them (yes only the rich) from the others.

The government will not change the "law" i.e the current way the county works because it would be against their benefit.

The solution is a completely new form of government - which needs a clean / correct philosophy and a (global?) revolution. How achievable you think is that?

Robert Paulson

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Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 10:00:05 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:42:16 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

Self interest.

Ever been to a place without a functioning government? Your only missing out on the freedom of dying of a toothache at 30. Freeeedooooom!! Roll Eyes

sure, because only the government can heal a toothache.
let me tell you a secret, the doctor who takes care of you does not work for the government, in fact he wouldn't have to charge as much money if he didn't have to pay the free loader bureaucrats in the government their protection money.

I have spent a lot of time in the most impoverished places in the world. There are no dentists or doctors. Why? because there is only the strong and the weak. Any attempt to be a doctor would just get you kidnapped and held treating soldiers. I mean, why should I not keep a slave doctor?

If you lived in such a place you could not afford a dentist anyway. You would spend your time doing whatever the local warlord says you will do. No choices, no opportunity, just a lifetime of fear and poverty. That's what it's like, and I never met a person in a place like that who liked it.

the reason there are messed up places like that is not because of lack of government, its because of the mentality of the people there.
if they form a government it will be even worse then the situation where the warlords don't have a monopoly on military power.

America would not turn into a place like that should the government disappear, because the ethics of the people are different.
people in America generally respect the non aggression principle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

spazzdla

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Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 10:00:05 AM

Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:42:16 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

Self interest.

Ever been to a place without a functioning government? Your only missing out on the freedom of dying of a toothache at 30. Freeeedooooom!! Roll Eyes

sure, because only the government can heal a toothache.
let me tell you a secret, the doctor who takes care of you does not work for the government, in fact he wouldn't have to charge as much money if he didn't have to pay the free loader bureaucrats in the government their protection money.

I have spent a lot of time in the most impoverished places in the world. There are no dentists or doctors. Why? because there is only the strong and the weak. Any attempt to be a doctor would just get you kidnapped and held treating soldiers. I mean, why should I not keep a slave doctor?

If you lived in such a place you could not afford a dentist anyway. You would spend your time doing whatever the local warlord says you will do. No choices, no opportunity, just a lifetime of fear and poverty. That's what it's like, and I never met a person in a place like that who liked it.

It is views like this as to why big gov runs our slave lives.
People believe some how having a gov makes your country super rich and not having one makes it shitty ghetto place..
As I said people are super lazy and love not haivng to do anything and being told what do do... look at this guy.. Most people love being a slave.

RodeoX

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Quote from: Robert Paulson on October 16, 2014, 09:42:16 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on October 16, 2014, 09:38:54 AM

Self interest.

Ever been to a place without a functioning government? Your only missing out on the freedom of dying of a toothache at 30. Freeeedooooom!! Roll Eyes

sure, because only the government can heal a toothache.
let me tell you a secret, the doctor who takes care of you does not work for the government, in fact he wouldn't have to charge as much money if he didn't have to pay the free loader bureaucrats in the government their protection money.

I have spent a lot of time in the most impoverished places in the world. There are no dentists or doctors. Why? because there is only the strong and the weak. Any attempt to be a doctor would just get you kidnapped and held treating soldiers. I mean, why should I not keep a slave doctor?

If you lived in such a place you could not afford a dentist anyway. You would spend your time doing whatever the local warlord says you will do. No choices, no opportunity, just a lifetime of fear and poverty. That's what it's like, and I never met a person in a place like that who liked it.

Topic: why do people agree to pay taxes? - page 140. (Read 50995 times)