Topic: Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again? - page 4. (Read 1337 times)

Marketing and social media engagement could be one reason. On Facebook, Ledger has 57k followers, Trezor only 30k. Ledger's Twitter page is followed by 267k people, Trezor only has 158k. Ledger has a YouTube channel with 35k subscribers, Trezor's is only followed by 1.8k. Ledger releases several videos a week, Trezor released only 4 in the last 3 months.

If you do a Google search of "hardware wallet", Ledger's official site is the first result you will see. It's followed by several guides and articles and then you will find Trezor's official site towards the bottom of the first page results.

All that shows that Ledger is easier to find and come across. You see their content more frequently on social media and YouTube. Whether people like that or not, it works. I am sure they have many more partnerships with brands from the crypto sphere than Trezor. I think they just announced one with the FTX exchange a few days ago. Everyone using that exchange will probably see the Ledger branding somewhere, and they won't see the same for Trezor.

Ledger has also had it native app (Ledger Live) much longer than Trezor had its Trezor Suite. Love it or hate it, it was still there. You can use it for trading, staking, exchanging, for DeFi, soon for NFTs, etc. None of that might appeal to hardcore bitcoiners, but obviously tens and hundreds of thousands of people like it.   

For sure. They have already rebranded Ledger Live some time ago and they will surely do the same with the hardware wallets. They just have to sell the old stock first.

Imagine having to deal with way more faulty features than we're already seeing after each of the updates, on their current line-up... No, thanks

That's also bound to happen at some point for the Nano X, but I don't think they'll be doing it at the same time ^{[e.g. fewer sales]} + based on "this" post, it appears that in the near future, they might be releasing it with their "new logo".

I have limited knowledge when it comes to how they've handled the updates for the previous generations, but it'd be nice to at least see some security updates from time to time!
^{- I'm using a Samsung phone that stopped receiving software updates in the past year or two, but it's still receiving security updates regularly [depending on the device, I believe it's going to be for 4 to 5 years].}

Perhaps, they've unlocked the secret to how easily manipulate potential buyers...

Serious thought, Ledger has already made it 100% clear that they don't care about their customers. They are not even trying to hide it. But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not? And if the other manufacturers do the same will they pull sales from Ledger? And if not why not? This is something we should be discussing. I have my own thoughts, but I am interested in what other people think.


A bit of snark.
Introductions:
n0nce this is reality, reality this is n0nce apparently you never met each other yet :-)

I have been playing with PCs and tech since the mid 1980s, been actively in the IT support world since the late 1980s
From PCs, embedded devices and the like all the way up to full big iron servers developers have always been trying to see how much the hardware can handle then going beyond what it can do. Adding features at the sacrifice of things working properly. I dislike Ledger and the way that they do things. But it's been going on for more then 30 years that I can prove so I would guess it's been going on much longer then that.

-Dave

Actually they do work, just certain apps won't work on won't update.
(I do agree with your conclusion though).


I don't know how long after the production has stopped they have become (more or less) unusable. It could give us a hint for what to expect, although it also depends on what vulnerabilities are found and when.
For example, you can see here an obsolete Ledger HW.1 still working, although only with legacy addresses (including nested SegWit).
So, while I agree more than 90% with you, I find you a bit too harsh 

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Something else has also occurred to me. Although they'll discontinue Nano S, after some while, I expect that for many years to come they'll get support tickets from people keeping their money on a Nano S and "now" no longer working.

Nobody is forcing people to switch to new android smarphone devices but many people do it because phones stop working after few years, apps are not supported, etc.
You will notice that Ledger is doing exact same thing, but hardware wallet should not be the same as phones and communication device consumer products.
Ledger can always create new apps that will not be compatible with nano S and that would make it useless.

Answer to you question would be that you can't really use Electrum wallet now with older ledger devices like Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
On the other hand, first ever hardware wallet device Trezor One is still working just fine with Electrum, so you see the difference.
I am just saying that people who buy ledger nano S device now are basically wasting their money, clear and simple.

They can tell that for whatever reason the update is no longer compatible with the old hardware (see how Win11 update does it), they can simply tell in a year or two that old hardware is no longer supported, they can say nothing, just release update only for the newer HW (and make sure it won't work on Nano S), in the same way the older smartphones no longer get any kind of updates. There are plenty of ways to do it.
And Ledger's image is already going down, so they can't do much more harm to it


Clearly. From that point on, the Nano S user will be "walking on thin ice". He has to acknowledge that his device will - sooner or later - become thrash.
But what can he do? If he's transacting a lot, he clearly has to buy new device in the moment the old device is no longer supported. If he's using it seldom and any transaction can wait, all he has to do is to make sure the seed he wrote down is indeed good (easy to achieve with a Tails stick, offline), and wait for the device's complete end-of-life.

Sure, but do you think that it would be a smart business decision to tell their clients: you know what, all those Nano S's you bought, are now useless? From tomorrow, you wont be able to connect to Ledger Live. Hahah, suckers.

Good point. But there is still the issue of not being able to update your Bitcoin crypto app or install the newest firmware. In case your Ledger resets itself, you wont be able to configure it without accessing Ledger Live and downloading the BTC app as well. But yeah, Electrum should still work.

It's obvious that, like any commercial company, all they care about is to earn money. And forcing their user off an older product in order to make them buy again is... unfortunately too common and Ledger is clearly doing the same.


They can easily halt the software upgrades whenever they want. Their production for Nano S may be already stopped or may be at the end of this year.
Still, I agree that it should take time. Of course, it depends on how hungry/evil they are. Normally it should take at least one more year from now until the updates will end, but who knows?

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Also, something you both didn't say (or I've missed) : it also depends on how other software will behave. I mean that unless something fundamental changes or some big flaw is found, I don't see why Electrum wouldn't support the Nano S for many more years after Ledger stops updating it.

It's not really a revolutionary prediction you are making there. A new product is getting developed that is meant to eliminate the shortcomings of its forerunner. Once released, it makes the old device less attractive and outdated. Isn't that the way that technology works outside the scope of hardware wallets as well?

I am just saying that it's going to take time. The production of the old Nano S could stop in a month, but you are still going to be able to use your device and they will surely keep making software upgrades for it as well for some time until their clients either purchase a newer Ledger brand or switch to a different company all together. 

Please let's be realistic, they are doing the same thing like smartphones and they even want to evolve their hardware wallet into phone
They don't have the work power to handle updates for all three active devices (they already have 3 or 4 defunct devices) unless they move their factory like Apple in China or hire other slave workers.
This is just my speculation, and we can always return to this post in future and see if I was wrong with my prediction

Even if the production stops, the device will still be supported for some time. It won't happen overnight. They are not going to prevent you from accessing Ledger Live or their services with it. Even the old HW.1 still works (kind of) as mocacinno showed in this post. 

Check my reply to you regarding this in one of the other threads in this sub.

I came to the same conclusion, but they have new plan to make more money with their new hybrid s+ wallet with they just announced few days ago.

I am 99% sure that production os ledger nano s will stop in 2022, and they will blame short supply of chips and small memory for that.
People should think about and transfer their seed words to new device in time, or they will lend up like with ledger blue collectible.
I don't think that ledger will use better secure element, and screen will probably be same like for model nano x.

It is possible that the production will stop at one point in the future. The new Nano S Plus seems like a bigger competitor to the Nano X than to the old Nano S though. Bigger screen, better secure element, more internal memory, but no crap like Bluetooth or faulty internal battery. Maybe they are giving up on both the Nano S and X.

I'm not sure I can spot a dedicated memory chip anywhere on there. The very small storage space indeed hints at them just using the STM's internal memory. If that's the case, there's no experiments regarding 'extending storage' possible.

Achtung achtung! Attention Attention!
I am not a prophet but I can think with my head and here comes confirmation of my words I previously wrote multiple times even in this topic.
Reason for Ledger Nano S constantly reducing space for apps is now very much clear to everyone who wants to see.

Pascal Gauthier CEO and Chairman of Ledger announced at ledgerop3n that Ledger will release NEW Ledger Nano S device that will support more coins, more apps, and bigger screen.
That means that current Nano S device is not going to be manufactured anymore and soon it will not be supported with updates, exactly the same thing happened with Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue devices.
I also saw his recent interview for Protocol and Gauthier said that his biggest competition hardware wallet will be upcoming Block wallet developed by jack Dorsey team.
He said that Ledger is not focused on Bitcoin like Block and he basically said that Ledger is just a shitcoin wallet that is probably going to evolve into phone
https://www.protocol.com/fintech/ledger-crypto-wallet-pascal-gauthier


https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1468869997510418433

Conclusion:
Ledger Nano S will be discontinued soon, so don't waste your money purchasing it now.

They are constantly changing some stuff on their PCBs, but if we look their website we can see all the elements inside, and I can recognize STM Microcontroller and ST31H320 secure element, but I am not sure about memory.
I am not familiar with other components on the board, but maybe memory that is used is from secure element, ST31H320 has up to 320 Kbytes of secure high-density user flash memory.
Nano X is using different model of secure element ST33J2M0 that has up to 2048 Kbytes of user flash memory.


https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404382029329-Check-hardware-integrity?support=true

But if the code was public you would be able to spot that instantly, wouldn't you? You actually answered that in your next post, so it's just a rhetorical question. Open-source software is always the better option, but let's not kid ourselves. A big majority of people have no knowledge about coding, they are just drawn to the idea that it's public and verifiable. There is nothing wrong with that, but it would be interesting to do a test and modify a bit of a code to make it seem malicious and wait to see how much time it will take for people to spot it. Obviously no one would want to do that and mess with their company's reputation. I don't think there are more than 10 people on this forum with the technical skills to understand each line of code. Even if there were more, how many of them are active checking each new release and code modification?   

I can't disagree. As a Ledger user myself, that HW is no longer my first choice if I needed a new one. But let's separate privacy concerns from the safety of funds. The hardware wallet does what it was designed to do. It was designed to keep your private keys safe.

Everything that happened with the database leaks is surely not something they did intentionally. Why would they introduce a backdoor now? If that was the goal all along, wouldn't it have made more sense doing it while their reputation was better to affect as many people as possible? The battery problem is a different matter. That's Ledger's mistake and the fault with those working on assembling the devices. 

I disagree. Often, during software development when you built something, it wasn't all the most perfect, efficient code. So when you maintain your software properly, instead of (as you described) just adding more and more stuff - which would be called 'bloating' the software - you should focus on improving it by simplifying things and the codebase can definitely shrink over time.

It's also a developer's duty (in my opinion) to consider the device's capabilities that the software is made to run on. If you have to develop software for an extremely limited embedded device, that should allow users to install extra stuff onto it, you better focus on actually leaving them space to do so.

It's as if Apple would release an iOS update that fills up 50GB of the phone's storage for the OS, leaving just 14GB for data, for instance. Meanwhile releasing a game on Steam that is 50GB in size, could be more reasonable. Developers should keep in mind the hardware before publishing a bloated firmware that deletes existing apps..

Damn How can you release a firmware that got larger than before and at the same time offer more coins? They really don't think things true. I mean I couldn't care less for shitcoin support. But if I'd try to offer people more coins, I'd try to do it in a way that it's actually possible to also use more simultaneously.

It's not an unreasonable idea. It was done by the Homebrew community on the Game & Watch for example. It would help knowing if the memory is on- or off-chip and what package it uses.

It's even worse situation, because on their new redesigned website ledger live app have even bigger list of supported coins to over 1800  

Do you think it's possible to open ledger device and replace memory with bigger memory, making it DIY ledger that will support more coins?  
I know that ledger nano x have bigger memory but I am not sure how big it is exactly.

Don't laugh, please.. When I read something like this I always thought it supported e.g. 1100 coins contemporaneously. LOL epic fail, when you advertise like this and the customer can only realistically use less than 10 coins at any given time... It's not like SPI flash is expensive, and it wasn't in 2017 either.

Just an example:
It's 3€ for 32MB if I understand correctly (and you order 500 units).