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Topic: Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again? - page 5. (Read 1337 times)

legendary
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December 05, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
#32
1. Closed Source - well, you probably knew about it when you bought this wallet, nothing has changed through all these years. For some people it's not big deal. If someone discovered that Ledger is closed source only after they have bought it, it's their fault, not Ledger.

Closed Source - Yes, it doesn't matter to users, like me, for example. Even if the code were open source, it would not change anything for me, since I am not an expert in this. I think many of the users, like me, are not technically savvy in codes.

But wouldn't you agree with me that this poses a potential threat? It cannot be ruled out that the company deliberately or unintentionally (due to access by intruders. This has already happened with Ledger) may make changes to the source code that could cause damage to users' funds. The saddest part of this may be that it may be too late until the problem is discovered.

Common users want security, but closed source doesn't inspire confidence.

2. Small Memory. It's always been case with Ledger. Install/Uninstall is a bit inconvenient thing, but for peoplewho keep BTC mainly I think it's not an issue. But if you keep 1032 different coins/tokens, you can get Nano X with bigger memory.

Small Memory. - It is not clear to me whether it is technically difficult to increase the device's memory. The amount of memory that Ledger offers is ridiculous for 2021. 138Kb would have been acceptable in the 80s and 90s  Smiley.

3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.

Display - It's the same here. Aren't there other more reliable options? It seemed to me that in our age of technological progress, a solution can always be found.

4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.

Cheap plastic - I can't believe that a slightly higher quality plastic will increase the price so much. But it would help users to avoid unnecessary breakdowns, but it would deprive the company of new sales. It is sad that manufacturers are trying to make a profit in all possible ways and the quality of modern technology is an example of this. The sooner the device breaks down, the faster the buyer will buy a new one. "Nothing personal just business" - this is the spirit of our time  Sad

It is not clear to me why Ledger cannot create a device by eliminating these physical defects. For example, how Apple did it with the release of iPhone SE, i.e. improving iPhone 5S. It would be possible to win over buyers in this way. Instead of spending the company's budget on advertising and other nonsense, it would be better to channel these funds in the right direction, which I described above. Create a quality product and no advertising is needed.
 
7. Leaking personal information. That's big issue, it seriously hit Ledger reputation, but because of it device itself don't become worse.

Ledger device itself does not get worse, but the safety of funds for them is under threat (why was this device created?), because it creates an attack vector through the users themselves.

The pinned message on the Ledger's subreddit looks ironic after awful events https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ck6o44/be_careful_phishing_attacks_in_progress/
Still, how can this not be in progress, after they allowed the data leak.

8. Bad support. I don't have much experience with Ledger support, so I can't comment much about it, but unfortunately, poor support is quite often trend in crypto business. Though, it's not excuse for Ledger.

Bad support - To speed up the processing of your problem, you can try to write about it in the company's subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/.

To summarize everything, Ledger is far from being perfect, but I think it's not worth to have very big expectations about old device for $60. It's same like you don't expect that 5 year old mid range phone will work better than new flagship or Toyota Prius will be better than Tesla Model S.
Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.

Yes, I agree that the Nano S in its current form is far from perfect, but I am more inclined to conclude that it is not worth the $60.

Again, I agree with you that I would not buy a device in this form even now. Perhaps, I would pay attention to the device if the above drawbacks (including those that I missed) were eliminated.

How do you think you should draw the company's attention to these issues by posting a thread on their subreddit? And by voicing what changes in the model S the community would like to see.
legendary
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December 05, 2021, 03:01:35 AM
#31
3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.
And that isn't any different from modern TV sets where you also start experiencing display issues once the warranty runs out. Electronic gadgets nowadays aren't created to last forever. You are a customer, and the companies want you to be just satisfied enough to purchase a second and third gadget once those you bought in the past break.

4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.
Honestly, I don't see what the fuss regarding its plastic cover is all about. I have had mine for several years and there is nothing wrong with it. I take it out when I need to perform some transactions and put it back in its nice little hiding when it's not being used. It was never meant to be a chew toy for your dog.

7. Leaking personal information.
From a privacy perspective, this was an awful event. But when Shopify was hacked and had its data leaked, multiple businesses were affected. Any other crypto company or hardware manufacturer could have been on the list of those that got hacked. This time it was Ledger. But it's bad that it happened twice. The second leak came from their own servers and not Shopify's.

Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.
If I had to select between a Nano S and X today, I would still pick the S version. I don't need an internal memory for 1000 apps, I am not even using 10. The screen size is also not something I worry about. The address does get divided in 3 when you compare and verify it against the one that is being shown in LL or Electrum. But it really isn't that difficult to press the same button twice to display the other parts of the address.
legendary
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Slava Ukraini!
December 04, 2021, 06:54:49 PM
#30
You have valid points, but I don't see much point to complain much about device which was released 5 years ago and never been considered as high end product.
1. Closed Source - well, you probably knew about it when you bought this wallet, nothing has changed through all these years. For some people it's not big deal. If someone discovered that Ledger is closed source only after they have bought it, it's their fault, not Ledger.
2. Small Memory. It's always been case with Ledger. Install/Uninstall is a bit inconvenient thing, but for peoplewho keep BTC mainly I think it's not an issue. But if you keep 1032 different coins/tokens, you can get Nano X with bigger memory.
3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.
4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.
5. Nano S could soon be discontinued. Well, nothing lasts forever. Same like Windows discontinue to support old versions or phone manufacturers stop giving updates to old phones. But you still can use it, same like you still can acces your crypto on old Ledger devices. I remember some guesses that Ledger amy discontinue Nano S, soon after release of Nano X, but I think 1.5 year already passed and it didn't happened.
6. Bad Multisig support. Personally I don't need this thing, but yeah, I must agree about it.
7. Leaking personal information. That's big issue, it seriously hit Ledger reputation, but because of it device itself don't become worse.
8. Bad support. I don't have much experience with Ledger support, so I can't comment much about it, but unfortunately, poor support is quite often trend in crypto business. Though, it's not excuse for Ledger.
To summarize everything, Ledger is far from being perfect, but I think it's not worth to have very big expectations about old device for $60. It's same like you don't expect that 5 year old mid range phone will work better than new flagship or Toyota Prius will be better than Tesla Model S.
Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.
legendary
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December 04, 2021, 01:28:51 PM
#29
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.
Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 

Or the reason may be different, for example, Ledger adds a backdoor or something like that. We can't check because of the hidden source code. It's hard not to be paranoid about a company that has been damaging its credibility after losing its users' data. Whatever the representatives of the company say after that, the attitude towards them will never be the same.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
December 04, 2021, 11:37:06 AM
#28
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.
Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 
legendary
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December 04, 2021, 05:55:33 AM
#27
Surprise, surprise... ledger nano s memory space is reduced yet again from 144kb to 138Kb, that means that ledger lied before when they said that space reduction is only temporary.
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

Whoever doesn't expect that is...unrealistic.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.
It was not incorrect, because even ledger engineer developer/moderator confirmed that FIDO app was NOT available:
Quote
The Fido application is back in the Manager. We apologise for the short inconvenience, please let me know if you have been able to install it!
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/comment/hn42yn4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Oh, so in the meanwhile they've put it back. Interesting. Thank you.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
December 04, 2021, 05:53:02 AM
#26
Surprise, surprise... ledger nano s memory space is reduced yet again from 144kb to 138Kb, that means that ledger lied before when they said that space reduction is only temporary.
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.
It was not incorrect, because even ledger engineer developer/moderator confirmed that FIDO app was NOT available:
Quote
The Fido application is back in the Manager. We apologise for the short inconvenience, please let me know if you have been able to install it!
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/comment/hn42yn4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Looks like this issue is fixed now, but it shows again that ledger devs are amateurs and I would not used Fido with ledger ever again.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
December 04, 2021, 02:59:25 AM
#25
It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit [thanks to the latest firmware]
I think it already took a hit before this firmware was released because several standalone crypto apps increased in size significantly. Bitcoin's app is a particularly big one.

The thing is that after the firmware update there are no apps at all and it asks if you want to reinstall them. If there's no space for them, some may not be reinstalled and I don't know if it returns a proper error message or not.
Of course, that's just logical. You can't fit more apps than it's theoretically possible.

Memory is not a problem at all. Install and Uninstall those apps take literally 10 seconds and you wouldn't be doing that so frequently (if you are, you are doing something wrong)
If you bought a hardware wallet with limited storage capabilities, why complain about the wallet's limited storage capabilities? The software will of course get bigger in size with new features, fixes, and improvements. How can you expect that won't reduce the available space?   

About LED , plastic, etc, that is what you pay for. Ledger nano is extremely cheap.
Exactly. You bought a plastic hardware wallet with LED display of a very small size. Live with it or purchase one made of a stronger material and bigger screen.


The biggest problem with this upgrade, if it turns out to be true, would be that the Fido U2F app no longer works. NeuroticFish has already shown that he can find it amongst the installable apps. The only question now is whether or not it works. Does anyone know if there are issues if this app gets installed/reinstalled? 
legendary
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bitcoindata.science
December 03, 2021, 11:41:07 AM
#24

I think all points are somewhat valid , but none of them are a deal breaker to me.

Certainly closed source software is the worst of those points, but not all their software is closed software.  I think o ly ledger live is closed source  but the firmware isn't . They do not have a malicious code in their software,  they are not stealing people's money and actually it is one of the most secure ways of store btc. I trust much more ledger live than some random one  source software  .

Being open means it is auditable,  not that it was audited

Memory is not a problem at all. Install and Uninstall those apps take literally 10 seconds and you wouldn't be doing that so frequently (if you are, you are doing something wrong)

About LED , plastic, etc, that is what you pay for. Ledger nano is extremely cheap.

What really think is important in a hardware wallet is the capability to generate private keys in a safe environment.  Once the keys are generated and I have properly backed them up I don't need ledger live support or a beautiful plastic anymore.

I can just use that seed in any software and recove may btc,  which I know are safe, even after 10 years. Ledger nano can do that nearly flawlessly,  and I am pretty satisfied because it fits my needs.

I know other people may have other needs.
legendary
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December 03, 2021, 11:23:19 AM
#23
But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.
The one I mentioned it's a separate issue... From what I've understood, the Fido U2F app it's not showing up on the Ledger Live.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.



The thing is that after the firmware update there are no apps at all and it asks if you want to reinstall them. If there's no space for them, some may not be reinstalled and I don't know if it returns a proper error message or not.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them end its support in a year or two!

I would be even more disappointed if this would happen. They still sell Nano S, you know...
And even if the firmware won't be updated (except very big security problems), the apps still evolve. It doesn't matter if it'll be only Bitcoin app that fits, I'd expect that after a while, but no actually end of support, not yet. Maybe 2-3 years after they stop selling it...
legendary
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December 03, 2021, 10:26:55 AM
#22
their developers have multiple jobs so they are also reddit moderators  Cheesy
For real [I didn't know that]? Cheesy

Maybe this is their way to stop production of nano s device and force everyone to switch to nano x or some other new device they release.
They can always blame small memory etc.
Before my last update, my Nano S had Bitcoin, Ethereum, Fido U2F and 10k free space. After updating firmware and apps I have only 6k free space. 4k can easily make the difference.
@dkbit98: That's a valid point and judging by NeuroticFish's comment and the rate that it has increased recently, I wouldn't be surprised to see them end its support in a year or two!
- Even though it's quite normal for tech companies to ditch their older products while replacing them with new/better products, the manner in which they seem to be doing it is unethical.

From what I understand, there are 51 contributors. With some patience and playing around with selection on the first chart, this can be found out.
https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/graphs/contributors
Thank you for providing that link [hopefully, I'd be able to easily spot the differences] Smiley

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.
The one I mentioned it's a separate issue... From what I've understood, the Fido U2F app it's not showing up on the Ledger Live.
legendary
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December 03, 2021, 09:09:48 AM
#21
That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately [from their Github page]?
- I don't know my way around GitHub.

From what I understand, there are 51 contributors. With some patience and playing around with selection on the first chart, this can be found out.
https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/graphs/contributors

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.
Before my last update, my Nano S had Bitcoin, Ethereum, Fido U2F and 10k free space. After updating firmware and apps I have only 6k free space. 4k can easily make the difference.

Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/

Can't an user remove another coin's app, install Fido and use it? Or some related data is lost? (I've installed Fido U2F not long ago for tests and didn't get to do any.)
legendary
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December 03, 2021, 08:24:19 AM
#20
That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately?
I don't know, you can ask them and find list of contributors on every page in github but only for ledger live app, and their developers have multiple jobs so they are also reddit moderators  Cheesy

It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit [thanks to the latest firmware]:
OMG I missed that, it's like they are slowly cooking the frog and reducing space for apps.
Maybe this is their way to stop production of nano s device and force everyone to switch to nano x or some other new device they release.
They can always blame small memory etc.
legendary
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December 03, 2021, 07:54:06 AM
#19
Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/
That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately [from their Github page]?
- I don't know my way around GitHub.

It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit [thanks to the latest firmware]:

legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
December 03, 2021, 05:51:46 AM
#18
New bug crap issue from Ledger with latest device updates is that Fido U2Fapp can't be installed on ledger Nano, and what is even worse is that update removes Fido U2F app itself!
Multiple customers are reporting this issue on ledger reddit page, and developers are currently investigating this issue.
Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/
If you are using Fido U2F - don't update ledger.

Can't install Fido U2F since updating my ledger Nano S.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6y2e8/cant_install_fido_u2f_since_updating_my_ledger/

What happened to FIDO
Firmware update abd it got rid of the Fido app... I need it. How to get it back
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7tvqz/what_happened_to_fido/

Big problem with fido
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7j1h2/big_problem_with_fido/

FIDO APP NOT VISIBLE in Ledger Live 2.35.2 Nano S 2.1.0
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/fido_app_not_visible_in_ledger_live_2352_nano_s/


legendary
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November 19, 2021, 04:21:37 AM
#17
You said phrase ''certain elements of it will be kept a secret'' and that was not mentioned anywhere by trezor developers or me, so it was your own interpretation Wink
Yes, it was my interpretation of what they said and the word combinations they used. It would really be cool if the chip ends up being completely open-source and I hope it will for the future of the entire hardware wallet industry.

And thanks for the video. It's a rather long one so I will watch it in episodes.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
November 18, 2021, 08:08:44 AM
#16
I wasn't. I am just interpreting their own words "as open source as possible".
You said phrase ''certain elements of it will be kept a secret'' and that was not mentioned anywhere by trezor developers or me, so it was your own interpretation Wink
I suggest first reading the link with definition and comparison with closed hardware to learn what open source hardware really means.
I posted a video in one of my previous posts in this this thread and I am following all trezor news regarding this subject.

PS
Now let's get back to topic of ledger nano s.

legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
November 18, 2021, 08:01:51 AM
#15
Please don't make your own definition for open source  Smiley
I wasn't. I am just interpreting their own words "as open source as possible". According to my understanding of English, that doesn't mean fully/completely/100% open-source. I could be wrong, but that's what they said. The "as possible" part could mean anything. As much as the manufacturing company allows, as much as some license agreement (if there is one) allows, or something else. 

oh and you are quoting some old blog post from 2020,
and new information I heard confirmed what I am saying, but let's wait the end of 2022 and see, if we are alive and well by them.
I couldn't find anything newer about the topic. Can you post a link so I can check newer and updated claims?
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
November 18, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
#14
As open-source as possible means that certain elements of it will be kept a secret.
Please don't make your own definition for open source  Smiley
Open source hardware definition is clear, they are transparent and there is no some ''secret elements'' in them, oh and you are quoting some old blog post from 2020,
and new information I heard confirmed what I am saying, but let's wait the end of 2022 and see, if we are alive and well by them.
You can't change a license just a little bit, add common clause and still call it open source like Coldcard wallet is doing with their device, and if something like this happens with Trezor I will be the first to call them out.

Quote
"Open hardware," or "open source hardware," refers to the design specifications of a physical object which are licensed in such a way that said object can be studied, modified, created, and distributed by anyone.
https://opensource.com/resources/what-open-hardware
legendary
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Merit: 7065
November 18, 2021, 04:06:58 AM
#13
My Nano S has been moving awfully slow after I updated it to one of the latest firmware versions.  I can not remember precisely, but I think it was around six months ago.  I used to navigate really fast through the menu before, but they seem to have added a button input delay which makes the Passphrase setup a pain.
They seem to have added a deliberate delay between button presses. It's noticeable also when you first connect the device and enter your PIN to unlock it. I remember reading about something like that in the past, but I can't find any source now to confirm it and I don't remember what reasons they gave for doing that. Have you checked in the settings menu if there is an option to speed it up? I will have to generate a new BTC addy later today so I will take a look myself and report back if I find something.  

That is because all those 2 KB apps are just clones and forks of original coins, for example all you mentioned are forks of Bitcoin, and ETC, BNB and other crap are forks of Ethereum.
Yeah, I know that. I was just trying to show that it is still possible to have multiple apps installed if they are dependent on the stand-alone app. Dependent (Ledger's term) is nothing else than a fork.

My point is that their main Nano S selling point for supporting bunch of altcoins does not stand anymore, until they fix this or upgrade with some new device and I think they are working on something like that.
I agree, but I don't think there is much that they can do with the Nano S and its limited storage capacity. New updates take up more and more space and the Nano S looks like an old Celeron processor that is getting beaten by newer, faster, and better competitors.  

Adding Bluetooth to the new device, which leaves an open door for potential attacks, and not learning their storage size mistake makes me presume their up and coming product will only get worse.
I didn't like the Bluetooth feature the moment I read about it. I look at it the same way as you do. A potential attack vector for the future. But what issues do you have with the storage space of the Nano X. Compared to the Nano S, it's been increased significantly!

I think that your information is wrong, Trezor won't release their new hardware wallet device before end of 2022, and they are working on their own Open Source secure element with Tropic Square.
His information is not completely wrong. The secure element is not going to be 100% open source.

In Trezor's own words:

Quote
Together, we are building a new company: Tropic Square, the creators of the next TRuly OPen Integrated Circuit. This new entity’s purpose is to deliver a chip as open-source as possible.
https://blog.trezor.io/introducing-tropic-square-why-transparency-matters-a895dab12dd3
As open-source as possible means that certain elements of it will be kept a secret.
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