Topic: Why I'm an atheist - page 62. (Read 89184 times)

I believe it makes no difference if you believe in god or not, what matters is to attain self-realisation, and consciousness is the only route to do so

Yeah, and I think people who believe in a god is just being indoctrinated when they are young. Young child is so gullible so anything you tell will mostly make them believe without doubts.

I am an atheist simply because i have no belief in a god or gods.  I don't beleive but choose not to accept,  i simply don't Beleive in fairy tales.  In this day and age religion is the last of the accepted mental illnesses.

We became more clever because that fits our survival ability, it's just that we make it extend to the point where our intelligence is used to participate and other humans to survive for a living, that's why as thousand years passed by. People knew how to have agriculture and industry.

On the other hand, many people believe that we came from inorganic material through a process called evolution. Evolution has been proven to be mathematically impossible. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-mathematical-impossibility-of-evolution-1454732 It's funny to me how people, especially scientists, can keep on believing it when it has been shown to be scientifically (mathematically) impossible. But...

Let's say that evolution happened to be true for a moment. Why would it not be possible in this great universe for some form of evolution to have developed intelligent creatures thousands of times faster than people developed on earth? And why could they not be a lot more intelligent than we are?

Then, let's say one of them developed a mental way to manipulate space-time using his mind. Could he not change everything in the universe to have been brought into being by way of creation rather than evolution? Wouldn't He be God if He could do this? Why would you think that if impossible evolution could exist, that a seemingly impossible Being like God couldn't exist?

You might say that we have no proof. But we don't have proof for much of anything. In fact, when it comes right down to it, life is impossible, because we have no clue as to how it could exist in the first place. The only reason that we know life can exist is because we are here.

Think about it.

Im an atheist because of the simple reason,it is funny for me that someone believes that in the skies (??) there is some guy who rule's the whole universe.
Common,its 2016 how could someone still believe this? well,i cant change that anyway i dont care about religion.
Maybe except islam because they want to kill me for being an atheist lol

Hardly so. The fact that there were visual experiences which were verified is certainly worthy of further study, and if confirmed it would indicate that the phenomena of veridical experience during brain death is a reality, and this would prove that mind can function independently of the brain.

Like I said earlier: The results of this case study are not considered to be proven? Then which claims are in doubt?

Here is a scientific study for investigators looking into explanations for the sources of information in mediumship and other similar phenomena (a thought experiment where the result of the "proxy" experiment will often be so clear that there will be no need to conduct a physical experiment at all). This experiment presents evidence that allows a skeptic to decide whether or not the Seth material represents a genuine communication from a discarnate entity. Of course, to prove that Seth was really providing these communications, one would need to believe in the possibility that personality and identity are not dependent upon physical form. This requires an openness of mind and "an attitude of humility in relation to the present state of scientific knowledge" that not all investigators find easy to adopt (Kelly et al., 2007, pp. xxiii-xxviii). As Jon Klimo (1987) in his classic study of channeling observes: "The scientist who stays open to the possible reality of channeling runs into this problem by holding what McClenon (1984) calls "beliefs. . . that violate some of the [current] metaphysical foundations of science" (p. 206). Otherwise, investigators would limit themselves to a determination that the source of the material remains unidentified.

http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Research/Problem_of_Seths_Origin.pdf

Actually, I feel it to be quite the opposite. I think that you don't want to accept Dr. Parnia's three claims from the AWARE study (see below) and conclude that the mind can exist independent of brain. That is OK; I am sure that as you read more of these references that I am providing, you will have a better understanding of the problems faced by science in explaining consciousness from a purely physical standpoint.

Your arguments appear to be based on scientism with assumptions that survival is impossible even though survival has not been ruled out. Pseudo-skeptical arguments are being made that do not consider the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the possibility of survival or do not consider the possibility of new paradigms. Such pseudo-skeptical arguments are being made without any scientific evidence.

The evidence of this case is quite clear and has been stated to you numerous times; it is interesting that you give no specific rebuttal to any point of evidence that Parnia claims for his study:

1) "In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat."

2) “This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn't resume again until the heart has been restarted. "

3) “Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events."

The results of this case study are not considered to be proven? Then which claims are in doubt? Do you doubt the medical staff as credible witnesses? Do you doubt that the brain ceases its higher functions after (less than) 40 seconds of cardiac arrest? Do you doubt that the patient had recollections that were consistent with the verified events described by the medical staff? Which of these claims are in doubt and why?

You can rest assure I'm not going to lose time reading more details about a case that just gives "evidence" to support what for me is obvious.

Even if on the case of the only person (on 152) who reported anything relevant there weren't any images facing the ceiling, even so, this lone case still is irrelevant as scientific evidence. It isn't even interesting.

If 152 on 154 said they saw nothing, case close.

Doesn't make any sense to believe in things as strange as the ones believers believe only based on anecdotal cases, contradicted by many more anecdotal cases and by all scientific studies that show no evidence for metaphysical entities.

At least, be honest with your self (no problem if you don't want to be honest with us) and recognize that your believes have nothing to do with evidence and everything to do with willingness to believe.

I agree but let's accept the fact that evolution still can't explain how is consciousness developed and even Degrasse said that how consciousness developed is still on argument and unknown.

This patient did not "see the number", but he did "hear a sound" and this sound is also sufficiently specific for scientific purposes, so any denial of his veridical perception must take into account the methods used in the study and explain why specifically these methods failed to actually verify the perception that took place; a simple "he made it up" will not do because such a claim is lacking evidence and examples of veridical perception are quite numerous in the literature. To attack the study's methods and conclusions is a tough job for a pseudo-skeptic who barely even knows one thing about this study.

Dr. Parnia's study presents one good case from recent times, but there are many more good cases; for example, the Eisenbeiss case is exceptionally good. My opinion has evolved only after reading vast amounts of information on many diverse subjects, and I do not think this case is paramount.


The survival hypothesis is proven if veridical perception during brain death (clinical/actual death) is accepted. This is according to skeptic Chris French.

Actually, since this patient did not have any images facing the ceiling, it seems like you are totally confused about the methods used in this study.
You never bothered to check about the facts of this patient's case!! No wonder you can dismiss a scientifically "verified" report as nothing but rubbish; you never even bothered to learn the truth!
Please be sure to read my link thoroughly before you try to discuss this case with me. I don't post these links to entertain myself but to inform YOU. Take a look and put forth a valid argument if you can.

Not even the one who described something verifiable in 150 (that didn't report seeing anything!) could see the well visible images facing the ceiling!

One individual in 152 means just that this one tossed out some inventions and luckily said one or two correctly. Ups, he forget the main ones, the images facing the ceiling.

By the way, are you saying that the other 150 went to "hell"? Why they didn't report seeing the devil? How did none of them saw anything?

Now your precious AWARE study, that made you change your views on religion, is only one peace of evidence? I thought you said it was enough evidence to show that the soul was scientifically proved.

Anecdotal cases of reincarnation? I bet I could find thousand of them on a few sanatoriums! Only Napoleons I would find hundreds...

I bet that could make a case for scientific evidence that Napoleon is alive. Of course, 99,99% would be lying. They can't all be Napoleon.

But with so many saying that they are Napoleon, certainly at least one would have to be telling the truth. Isn't it?

Well i come from a Jewish family, but my mom became a Budhist and left me and my siblings with free choice.

Atheism is for me just the most logical way to go, my siblings on the other hand are all 4 agnostic.


As long as people don't force their believes on me, i will respect their believes to some point.

But i will never tell anyone that my way, is the way to go.

It is good to ask for evidence, but you should not ask to see just one piece of evidence; that means that you are only willing to evaluate one piece of evidence, but a good theory has "proofs converging from many and varying classes of phenomena [which] unite in establishing it".

52 points of evidence are found here: http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html
The 20 Most Convincing Spirit-Contact Cases and The 20 Most Impressive Reincarnation Cases: http://www.aeces.info/Top40/top40-main.shtml

"There already exists a substantial amount of anecdotal accounts of veridical perception, and it may only be a matter of time before out-of-body veridical perception is proven to exist under strict research controls which will satisfy the skeptics."



Actually, this evaluation of the AWARE study is both shallow and misleading.

How can you simultaneously claim that the "reports are just rubbish" and also concede that "one of them described events that could be verified"? It's obvious that you believe in a contradiction because you did not provide any reason to doubt that there was a verified report. A verified report is exactly the opposite of a "rubbish report", don't you agree? Now the skeptics have one verified report to examine, so this study is definitely something of interest to the serious thinker.

Why do you still refuse to admit that this one case proves that more study is needed? You dismiss "only one" verified report as if that is the rational thing to do, but in reality you are dismissing it because it does not fit the rest of your prior beliefs. You act as if there were no verified reports at all, and you never mention that this experiment needs to be re-done with some better controls because there is obviously something interesting going on.


Read the details about the methods used in AWARE: https://awareofaware.co/2014/10/18/the-fat-lady-sings-or-not/

What are you doing is a prejudge.
Science is science,if they invent a way for men to become a women (it's still not the same lol) it does not mean that the science is bad right?
By the way,show me one evidence there is a real god,there is a real life after death or something... personally i think when u die ur consciousness just ends and thats all

However, your evolution points fail miserably. The info at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-mathematical-impossibility-of-evolution-1454732 shows that the most simple form of evolution is mathematically impossible, and THAT is with giving it so much benefit of the doubt that if it were explained as it really is, evolution is not only improbable, it is not only impossible, but it is impossible to such a high degree that it is absolutely, incontrovertibly, utterly impossible.

Scientists and media who are telling you that evolution is the truth, have you believing in science fiction.

Evolution created consciousness, how could the second drive the first...

Some say your precious AWARE study failed miserably, since only one on 152 individuals participating described any events that could be verified and not even that one could see the images facing the ceiling, supposedly to be well visible by "souls" out of the body:

"In 2001, Sam Parnia and colleagues investigated out-of-body claims by placing figures on suspended boards facing the ceiling, not visible from the floor. Parnia wrote "anybody who claimed to have left their body and be near the ceiling during resuscitation attempts would be expected to identify those targets."

"No subjects saw the images mounted out of sight according to Parnia's early report [...]. Only two out of the 152 patients reported any visual experiences, and one of them described events that could be verified."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#AWARE_study

But I think they are wrong. Your AWARE study was a success showing that the near-death experiences reports are just rubbish.

Are you still going on about this? You really enjoy your science religion, don't you.

Natural selection is still selection. And selection that is as complex as this universe, or as complex as to be able to fit in this universe, can only be selection by God.

qwik2learn shows you a guy who proves that probability math precludes the possibility of evolution, and you simply want to ignore it? How in the world retarded are you, especially in trying to prove that you are that retarded?

"The Mathematical Impossibility of Evolution" as shown at http://www.icr.org/article/mathematical-impossibility-evolution/ is the thing that is wrong. It is wrong by bringing the beneficial evolution odds up to the same level as detrimental evolution odds, 1 to 1, rather than the thousands to 1 odds against beneficial evolution that it is normally and naturally present.

However, the big place where the http://www.icr.org/article/mathematical-impossibility-evolution/ site is wrong is where it doesn't even take into account any of the reactions that would immediately destroy every beneficial mutation immediately as it happened.

And the site still shows the trillions to 1 against the possibility of evolution even existing, just the way it stands, in giving beneficial evolution every illogical chance possible.

Lots of scientists have shown this, and you don't want to accept it? How in the world can you even live in a world so full of science fiction as yours is? Wake up to reality. IT DOESN'T HURT AT ALL TO LIVE IN A REAL LIFE.